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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Ni Doms, Inferior Extraverted Sensing and Incorrect Conclusions

    Roger Pearman talks about Ni-doms and how they act in the grip of their inferior extraverted sensing in his book, "I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just You". Here is a quote from the book which I found interesting.

    Extraverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment – people things, places. The fluid experience of information enables those using Extraverted Sensing to describe experiences well. But in it’s compensatory form, extraverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact... There is no step-by-step logical leading to the conclusion; It is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at.

    I think we normally have pretty decent insights. I am curious though - for non Ni-doms (non INXJ) - do you see us (INTJ and INFJs) doing this? INTJs and INFJs - do you realize you do this? Please elaborate.

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Roger Pearman talks about Ni-doms and how they act in the grip of their inferior extraverted sensing in his book, "I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just You". Here is a quote from the book which I found interesting.

    [I]Extraverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment – people things, places. The fluid experience of information enables those using Extraverted Sensing to describe experiences well.
    This makes sense to me. As a writer, I MUST be able to recollect and describe experiences well so that I am able to ground my reader in a real world. Good stories can't happen in a vacuum.

    But in it’s compensatory form, extraverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact. There is no step-by-step logical leading to the conclusion; It is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at. INTJs and INFJs - do you realize you do this?Please elaborate.
    I don't "think" I do that, but I could be wrong. It seems to me that Se is just that part of me that subconsciously takes in the sights, smells, tastes, colors, sounds of the world around me and builds a bridge from my inner world to the outer one. It allows me to live in the moment when I need to.

    EDIT...addition: It allows me to be able to paint a vivid world, cemented in the concrete, so that I can relate an abstract concept to people in concrete terms.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #3
    Senior Member Studmuffin23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Roger Pearman talks about Ni-doms and how they act in the grip of their inferior extraverted sensing in his book, "I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just You". Here is a quote from the book which I found interesting.

    Extraverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment – people things, places. The fluid experience of information enables those using Extraverted Sensing to describe experiences well. But in it’s compensatory form, extraverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact... There is no step-by-step logical leading to the conclusion; It is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at.

    I think we normally have pretty decent insights. I am curious though - for non Ni-doms (non INXJ) - do you see us (INTJ and INFJs) doing this? INTJs and INFJs - do you realize you do this? Please elaborate.
    I definitely do this, but as a description of in-the-grip, that's way off. He's actually describing a pretty healthy interaction between Ni and Se. Insights are the strength of INxJs, not their weakness.

    In-the-grip of Se is something like "The Hulk". I'm blocked from an important goal, and if there is no way around the obstacle, I start panicking. The more emotionally distressed I get, the more angry I get. After seeing that I'm completely defeated, I immediately resort to "brute force" (Se physical solution), thinking (quite blindly) that it MUST eventually work.

    I mostly experience this in competitive sports/games, and occasionally in debates.
    Last edited by Studmuffin23; 01-14-2015 at 12:54 AM.

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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I believe that I can do this by the way. I always thought that it was something more akin to 6 reactivity.

    It feels a l little like intuition running amok.

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    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    I relate to it, but not in the way Ene explains it. I do not feel like I paint magical stories of ....whatever artistic thing.

    But in my daily life I do it when I am interacting with friends and stuff. I enjoy being one step ahead, in a sense when it comes to people ...actually, I usually cannot help it.
    You are so arbitrary.

  6. #6
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Roger Pearman talks about Ni-doms and how they act in the grip of their inferior extraverted sensing in his book, "I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just You". Here is a quote from the book which I found interesting.

    Extraverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment – people things, places. The fluid experience of information enables those using Extraverted Sensing to describe experiences well. But in it’s compensatory form, extraverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact... There is no step-by-step logical leading to the conclusion; It is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at.

    I think we normally have pretty decent insights. I am curious though - for non Ni-doms (non INXJ) - do you see us (INTJ and INFJs) doing this? INTJs and INFJs - do you realize you do this? Please elaborate.
    When I think of being "in the grip of inferior Se" what comes to mind is the kind of stress of having too many things scheduled back to back, or just generally feeling like the hamster wheel is turning faster than I can effectively keep up. I start making stupid mistakes right and left- like losing my keys or not being able to figure out my iron isn't working because I haven't plugged it in, or needing to check my flattening iron five times before I walk out the door because I'm not sure if I turned it off (and I keep forgetting whether I already checked). I start getting extremely rigid about everything being exactly where I expect it to be when I need it, and become almost obsessive about planning things out ahead of time to preemptively troubleshoot as much as I possibly can.

    I do see something kind of like the quote occasionally- but that's more about when I get a bad feeling about someone or something and I can't place what it is. If that vague bad vibe starts to escalate and I can't excuse myself from the situation or distance the person I get a bad feeling from- and it starts to escalate at a faster pace than I can process it, so it just starts bottlenecking in my head, creating an unwanted emotional charge that keeps building as the unprocessed information builds up- then something like the description in the quote starts to happen. Once that has accumulated about someone/something, then tiny observations can snowball into an instant very bad feeling. It's rarely a specific conclusion though, more like just an overwhelmingly wary feeling. And even when it is a relatively specific conclusion (specific conclusions are based more on past experience of the person than the immediate isolated Se observation), I'm always aware the conclusion might be incorrect- in fact, the more emotionally charged I feel, the less I trust the conclusion. [I trust the wary feeling is there for a reason though, moreso as I get older- often times I just need to let incoming information run its course though the ol' Ni Rube Goldberg contraption before I understand what's causing it.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Yes. I see this often in my INTJ friend and have observed the same thing in INFJ female.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  8. #8
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Fwiw, I've found another reference to this (in that peanut gallery called the internet):

    from Pierce Presents: INFP (he lists it in the INFP description, but not his INFJ descriptions *shrug*)

    ...the INFJ is problematically unaware that their intuitions are entirely subjective. An INFJ may be inspired by a droplet of water to ponder on how it represents the true nature of the cosmos, and then develop a grand vision, forgetting that their only real-world evidence for said vision is a droplet of water. INFJs have trouble realizing the subjective origin of their seemingly objective visions.

    from Pierce Presents: INTJ

    Like the INFJ, the INTJ represses Se, which results in similar difficulties and reservations. The INTJ’s perception of the real world is very unreliable; they are so focused on what could be that it takes concerted and unpleasant effort to focus on what already is. As a result the INTJ often misses or ignores even large amounts of data in the conception of their vision, always drifting away from reality before managing to review all the evidence, a mistake the ISTJ hardly makes. This is another reason why the INTJ should not be considered logical or scientific in the regular sense: because their focus is not on logic or data, but on ideas and visions of the possible future, which, while appearing logical, are very often self-contradictory or paradoxical. The INTJ may hold passionately to ideas and theories that have no real evidence to support them at all. For example, Friedrich Nietzsche’s supposedly logical concept of the Eternal Reoccurrence, which represents a beautiful and compelling idea and seems validly logical, does not rely on any concrete facts or observations and makes many unproven assumptions which discredit both its inductive and deductive validity. The idea of Eternal Reoccurrence is just that, a beautiful idea. In these instances the INTJ’s expression of Te is rendered a mere illusion that doesn’t actually grasp at anything.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I believe that I can do this by the way. I always thought that it was something more akin to 6 reactivity.

    It feels a l little like intuition running amog.
    FYP.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    For example, Friedrich Nietzsche’s supposedly logical concept of the Eternal Reoccurrence, which represents a beautiful and compelling idea and seems validly logical, does not rely on any concrete facts or observations and makes many unproven assumptions which discredit both its inductive and deductive validity. The idea of Eternal Reoccurrence is just that, a beautiful idea. In these instances the INTJ’s expression of Te is rendered a mere illusion that doesn’t actually grasp at anything.
    Probably written by a literal-minded INTP...

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