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  1. #1
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    Default Te/Fi-types like authoritarianism

    Hypothesis: Te/Fi-doms generally like to build authoritarian societies, as in "might is right". And the Ti/Fe-doms generally do NOT like to build this.

    Who agrees? Who disagrees? (And why).

  2. #2
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Wait, do you mean ExTJs vs IxTPs?
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Yeah, baby. Those INFPs just loves them some authoritarianism.

    And if I had to pick a good motto for INFPs and ISFPs, I'd say "might is right" would have to be right up near the top of the list.
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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Yeah, baby. Those INFPs just loves them some authoritarianism.

    And if I had to pick a good motto for INFPs and ISFPs, I'd say "might is right" would have to be right up near the top of the list.


    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Hypothesis: Te/Fi-doms generally like to build authoritarian societies, as in "might is right". And the Ti/Fe-doms generally do NOT like to build this.
    What I do know is that a lot of Ti/Fe users tend to think this way about Te/Fi users and phrase things in this manner when referencing functional Te.

    But really, Fe and Te both are authoritarian hierarchical empire builders ... Je dom and aux rule!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Wait, do you mean ExTJs vs IxTPs?
    Yes...
    Te-dom=ExTJ
    Fi-dom=IxFP

    Maybe less pronounced, but we could even include Te/Fi-second-function:
    Te-2nd=IxTJ
    Fi-2nd=ExFP

    So with the included second function:
    xxTJ(Te) & xxFP (Fi) =authoritarian vs. xxTP (Ti) & xxFJ (Fe) = non-authoritarian

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post




    What I do know is that a lot of Ti/Fe users tend to think this way about Te/Fi users and phrase things in this manner when referencing functional Te.

    But really, Fe and Te both are authoritarian hierarchical empire builders ... Je dom and aux rule!
    Fe-s build together. Fe-s like to decide together like "democracy". Fe-s work based on common principles/morals.

    To say it in a funny way, a hypothetical group of pure-Fe-s-only can build an empire, but they will work together like a "headless mob monster", as no one would be their leader, just their moral code in the middle (not a person), and they would probably do some democracy-like voting on issues.

    Until it goes wrong of course and they start crying/panicking, and then a Te comes along to take over...
    The Te just wants to get the job done, regardless of principles/morals. He will just take his most efficient position to get the job done.
    So then the Fe-s are in a authoritarian society all of a sudden. (So they can fall into an authoritarian society, but that doesn't mean they build such society by themselves.)

    ----

    However, I know how Fe-s can "teach you a lesson", if you don't join the "headless monster of their moral code". Fe-s can obviously be very enforcing in making you join their "headless monster of their principles/morals". That may seem authoritarian if that is your mom for example. BUT.. just for fun, if you would do exactly what she proposes and follow her moral code even more ideally than she does, then she will shut up. You would find out that after that there is no upper leader / next level. You will find a headless monster containing her principles/morals only.
    However if your mom is Te or Fi, she could be authoritarian just for the sake of it, without any morals/principle(Fe), without any philosophical correctness(Ti) or just without any explanation why. And she would also be prone to bow to another Te/Fi above her, to someone (a person) more powerful than her (might is right), NOT to a common moral code (a non-person). Thus a command hierarchy of Te/Fi persons is created.

    So maybe hierarchy is a clearer word than authoritarian. Because yes, Fe mom can seem authoritarian, but she is usually not in a command hierarchy of actual people (she is only commanded by common moral code, which is not a person).
    Thats why I also said "authoritarian society", not just the authority of your Fe mom.

    Next time, I would use "hierarchical" as the definition, instead of "authoritarian". After I wrote all of this, I conclude that it is a better choice of words.

    So version 2 of the formulation of my hypothesis is:

    Te/Fi-users (xxTJ/xxFP) & especially Te/Fi-doms (ExTJ/IxFP) tend to build a "hierarchical society (of commanding people)"
    <vs>
    Ti/Fe-users (xxTP/xxFJ) & especially Ti/Fe-doms (IxTP/ExFJ) tend to build a "flat society (of commanding morals/principles)".
    ---

    Disclaimer: I am very abstract, so small (irrelevant) details might be wrong, as this is just a "zoomed-out" explanation. And I talk a about the general here, not about the exceptions.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Yeah, baby. Those INFPs just love to build a "hierarchical society (of commanding people)."

    And it's no wonder your "hierarchical/flat" subtypology doesn't work, because TJs and FPs are only kindred spirits (because they're supposedly both "Te/Fi users") in ways that differentiate both from FJs and TPs if you subscribe to the goofy Harold Grant function stack — a model that has no respectable validity, wasn't Jung's or Myers' function model, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks. And if you're interested, you can find more discussion of those issues in this post and this post.

    There are now decades of MBTI data pools full of statistically significant (and often very dramatic) correlations between MBTI preferences (and preference combinations) and a wide variety of things, from personality attributes to behavioral manifestations. And if the personality or behavioral characteristic you're correlating type with has the TJs (for example) at one end of the relevant spectrum, you know where you can reliably expect to find the FPs? Yeah, sorry, Researcher, but you can expect to find the FPs at the opposite end of that spectrum.

    Sadly for Harold Grant (and for shining lights like Linda Berens who've been peddling his fact-challenged model for years), it turns out there don't seem to be any real world things — like, say, "hierarchical" vs. "flat" social proclivities — where "Fi/Te vs. Fe/Ti" turns out to be the main influence, with the result that the TJs and FPs are on one side of the divide and the FJs and TPs are on the other.

    That's just not the way the MBTI preferences (and combinations) play out.

    The idea that INTJs and ESFPs have a lot of MBTI-related things in common because they're both "Fi/Te users" and "Ni/Se users" has no more "validity" — which is psychometric for corresponding with reality — than the idea that Mike and Judy have a lot of personality characteristics in common because they're both Capricorns. And again, it's based on a model that's inconsistent with Jung, inconsistent with Myers, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post

    ....

    The idea that INTJs and ESFPs have a lot of MBTI-related things in common because they're both "Fi/Te users" and "Ni/Se users" has no more "validity" — which is psychometric for corresponding with reality — than the idea that Mike and Judy have a lot of personality characteristics in common because they're both Capricorns. And again, it's based on a model that's inconsistent with Jung, inconsistent with Myers, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks.
    I didn't understand why your remarks were bit negative to me before, but now I see the pattern that you are simply trying to push some point about your own view of MBTI/typology. I just don't understand your point yet, on what you base everything, or what the foundation is for the things you say. What you say is not making sense to me now, but I am open to delve into your view, so maybe then I can understand you. Will get back to this later.

  9. #9
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Fe-s build together. Fe-s like to decide together like "democracy". Fe-s work based on common principles/morals.
    No they don't, but they like to think that they do. It's about power, who has it, who's losing it, who's in a position to capitalize on the loss. If you don't think Fe yields authority, then I think your understanding of what we discuss as functional Fe is very limited.

    However if your mom is Te or Fi, she could be authoritarian just for the sake of it, without any morals/principle(Fe), without any philosophical correctness(Ti) or just without any explanation why. And she would also be prone to bow to another Te/Fi above her, to someone (a person) more powerful than her (might is right), NOT to a common moral code (a non-person). Thus a command hierarchy of Te/Fi persons is created.
    There's just so much "wrong" about this I have suddenly felt the energy suck out of me to counter it with reason.

    No offense to you, but your position of coming to this site to "school" all of the rest of us on the functions seems highly misguided.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No they don't, but they like to think that they do. It's about power, who has it, who's losing it, who's in a position to capitalize on the loss. If you don't think Fe yields authority, then I think your understanding of what we discuss as functional Fe is very limited.



    There's just so much "wrong" about this I have suddenly felt the energy suck out of me to counter it with reason.

    No offense to you, but your position of coming to this site to "school" all of the rest of us on the functions seems highly misguided.

    Disclaimer2: I'm presenting a hypothesis here, and for the sake of it: I am defending it full throttle. Because if I wouldn't dare to go full throttle we would never find any answers anyway. Even though I haven't even decided myself if its true, I am just giving it a chance to see what comes out. "It's a hypothesis", that means I might be wrong. It's just an experimental idea. If in the end I am logically convinced I'm wrong, I will easily admit to it.

    And I am not schooling anyone here in this thread about MBTI or functions.

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