Introversion versus Extroversion

[Haphazard]

Okay, I'm going to go all BlueWing on you -- not with all these posts against F-ery, but rather post a long thing about a theory.

I remember what BlueWing said about 'passionate' versus 'intellectual' people, and then I found this when I was later looking up information about introversion versus extroversion:

Brain differences

Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused than extraverts". Because extraverts are less aroused internally, they require more external stimulation than introverts. This theory may be backed up by evidence that the brains of extraverts are more responsive to dopamine than those of introverts. Other evidence of this “stimulation” hypothesis is that introverts salivate more than extraverts in response to a drop of lemon juice.

One study found that introverts have more blood flow in the frontal lobes of their brain and the anterior or frontal thalamus, which are areas dealing with internal processing, such as planning and problem solving. Extraverts have more blood flow in the anterior cingulate gyrus, temporal lobes, and posterior thalamus, which are involved in sensory and emotional experience. This study and other research indicates that introversion-extraversion is related to individual differences in brain function.

Anyway. Does this look familiar?

In Myers Briggs, there are 8 proposed introverted types. Not all of them seem to fit the profile of the traditional introvert. The scale of extroversion and introversion is measured with two variables -- the amount of sensory stimulation one needs and the amount of time one needs to spend with other people.

Because of this, I propose that Myers-Briggs 'introversion' and 'extroversion' is definitely not the same as traditional introversion and extroversion -- which is misleading, considering how so many places define them and the questions used to figure out 'introversion' and 'extroversion' in the dichotomies tests.

The part of Myers-Briggs that weights most heavily towards introversion would be N, because of the need for so much less sensory data than S types. Here's how the breakdown seems to be, in order of most importance to least importance:

N versus S. S needs more sensory data, and will therefore seek it.

T versus F. F is explicitly related to people and will therefore seek them, whereas T is not. However, Fe weights towards extroversion much more than Fi.

I versus E. Whether an introverted function or an extroverted function dominates colors the person's worldview and would push them towards either extroversion or introversion.

P versus J. Carries the least weight, but somebody with an extroverted judging function in the first two slots will need to exert more influence over their world and will seek out more cooperation than someone with an introverted judging function.

So, according to this, this would put ESFJs (or at least ESFs) at the very top of the extroversion scale, an INTPs (or at least INTs) at the very bottom. Here's a list of how the extroversion-to-introversion scale would go, I estimate, from most extroverted to most introverted.

ESFJ
ESFP
ESTJ
ESTP
ISFJ
ENFJ
ISFP
ENTJ
ISTJ
ISTP
ENFP
INFJ
ENTP
INFP
INTJ
INTP

It's a bit more mixed than BlueWing's list, but who knows, this is just a guess. He may have meant something completely different. This list isn't to say that those at the very bottom cannot act extroverted and the ones at the top cannot be forced into introversion, but this is a basic scale. Feel free to suggest adjustments.

So, because of this scale, being an 'introvert' or an 'extrovert' in terms of Meyers Briggs only has a little influence on whether you're considered an 'introvert' or 'extrovert' by society. Because of this, I would believe the statistics that say, according to Myers Briggs, introverts are the majority, while a lot of other non-Myers Briggs statistics say that extroverts outnumber introverts two to one.

So. Enjoy.

 

[VanillaCat]

So this means I'm pretty introverted, or at least in the way I think?

 

[Haphazard]

So this means I'm pretty introverted, or at least in the way I think?

In the way you behave... I think.

ENFPs may be pretty extroverted, but from what I've noticed they're pretty selective about who they extrovert with. Also, their extroversion seems to be more in thought (like talking a lot) rather than action (going out to do active things a lot)

 

[VanillaCat]

In the way you behave... I think.

ENFPs may be pretty extroverted, but from what I've noticed they're pretty selective about who they extrovert with. Also, their extroversion seems to be more in thought (like talking a lot) rather than action (going out to do active things a lot)

That makes so much sense! Here I was thinking, "How can I be extroverted when I don't even want to go to that town food party...?" Yet, I can talk to someone on the phone for two hours, with someone who usually only has 2 minute conversations. I've heard that maybe 30 times in my life. "I never talk this much with anyone!" Makes me feel special.

 

[Mondo]

That makes so much sense! Here I was thinking, "How can I be extroverted when I don't even want to go to that town food party...?" Yet, I can talk to someone on the phone for two hours, with someone who usually only has 2 minute conversations. I've heard that maybe 30 times in my life. "I never talk this much with anyone!" Makes me feel special.

That describes me pretty well too.
In my case, it is also that I have some pretty strong interests (such as MBTI) and I kind of don't have any friends who are curious enough about it to have a deep conversation on the subject with.. so I'm online a lot.

I am thrill-seeking but I don't have to be active all the time to be happy.

 

[htb]

You codified what I had generally observed and assumed -- particularly, that ESFJs are the consummate socialites. Nicely done, Haphazard.

 

[runvardh]

Flip that list and it becomes the list of types represented on this forum from highest proportion to lowest, or damn close. I'm tempted to check...

 

[Haphazard]

Flip that list and it becomes the list of types represented on this forum from highest proportion to lowest, or damn close. I'm tempted to check...

Makes sense. Introverts are more likely to squander their time on the internet than going out there and seeking more intense stimulation.

 

[Sunshine]

Meh. Iono. I'm insanely introverted.

 

[runvardh]

Meh. Iono. I'm insanely introverted.

She didn't say it was the rule, just a guideline that the average seems to follow.

 

[Sunshine]

She didn't say it was the rule, just a guideline that the average seems to follow.

I see.

ENFPs do seem more introverted than most extroverts.

But more introverted than ISFPs, ISTjs, and ISTPs? I doubt it.


Also, yeah sure N types may need less sensory stimulus but at what point does it start to drain them? Isn't that what matters with introverstion/extroversion? My ENFP brother may not need much sensory stimulus but he seeks it way more than I do. I get drained much faster around people and heavy duty sensory stimulus (concerts, etc.)

ETA: Just to make it clear, I don't think that just because it's like that with me and my brother that all ENFPs are more extroverted than all introverted sensors, I was just using it as one example to go along with my hunch.

 

[Venom]

I see.

ENFPs do seem more introverted than most extroverts.

But more introverted than ISFPs, ISTjs, and ISTPs? I doubt it.


Also, yeah sure N types may need less sensory stimulus but at what point does it start to drain them? Isn't that what matters with introverstion/extroversion? My ENFP brother may not need much sensory stimulus but he seeks it way more than I do. I get drained much faster around people and heavy duty sensory stimulus (concerts, etc.)

i would actaully say that YES ISTJs ISFPs and ISTPs can appear more extroverted than ENFPs ON THE WHOLE without a doubt.

sure, there will be those ENFP moments when you CLEARLY see the ENFP out socializing the ISTJ, ISFP, ISTP. However, over the course of months, years etc...the the ISTJ/FP/TP all will be more likely to be "going out" and "doing stuff" and will appear more extroverted...
and i think the ENTP being introverted is another GREAT call. YES, there ARE some ENTPs who are as crazy as a stereotypical celebrity ENFP. However, most people i that thought were ENTPs, were actaully ENTJs...i think the true ENTPs ended up being much more introverted than most realize.

a good example is Jim Carry vs Jim from the Office. Both can come off has maybe having Ne. A lot of pretty 'qualified' people (i know, how do you mean qualified... idk) type Jim carry as ENTJ (not ENTP) and type Jim from the Office as ENTP (and not an introvert)

i think haphazard NAILED it. especially ENFPs ENTPs...they are very often atypical extroverts.

 

[Sunshine]

ENXPs at what point do being around people and having your senses stimulated drain you?

Same question to ISXXs.

 

[Samuel De Mazarin]

ENXPs at what point do being around people and having your senses stimulated drain you?

Same question to ISXXs.

It's usually some bend in the conversation which reminds me that other people are actually accomplishing things when they're not around me, and I get the urge to retreat and spend some "me"-time.

If that doesn't happen, I can usually hang out till I'm too physically exhausted to hang out anymore... like, literally, my features become crazy-distorted from fatigue and I can't even focus on trying to focus.

 

[Nocapszy]

ESFJ
ESFP
ESTJ
ESTP
ISFJ
ENFJ
ISFP
ENTJ
ISTJ
ISTP
ENFP
INFJ
ENTP
INFP
INTJ
INTP

What definitions of extroversion and introversion are you using?

Social inclination vs. social deficiency?
Even that's not an absolute...

It's not even predictable.

 

[Haphazard]

What definitions of extroversion and introversion are you using?

Social inclination vs. social deficiency?
Even that's not an absolute...

It's not even predictable.

It's how much energy for pursuit someone has along with how willing they are to dedicate this energy socially.

It's not a perfect list. It's a guess, based on theory and observation.

 

[entropie]

I find your theory very sound and well developed.

I assumed such a approach for myself, when I was constantly switching between iNTp and eNTp. I came to the conclusion that it is Ne, what then can bend the person's behaviour towards society by nature; between outlived insanity or inert weighting of reaction strategies to different accumulated information (because otherwise they think you're mad).

 

[substitute]

What SDM said. I can run on E-Ne-rgy forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever....

and just when I think I'm running out, some secret stash seems to get activated.

as long as there's something to interact with, I can interact indefinitely. It doesn't have to be people though, but people are the biggest mine of inspiration I can think of.

I'm WAY more extraverted than my mom though, who is ESFJ. She's more of a people-person than I am but in the sense of pure extraversion I'm a hundred times 'worse' than her. She can be all people-person-y but then she always needs to go home to her own space where things are her own way etc, and when she does her tasks she prefers to do them alone. If someone comes up and starts to chat with her while she's doing the laundry she'll be happy to chat and pleased to see them, but she wants to bustle them off all the same cos she can't get on with things while people are around. Maybe that's related to my pure extraversion, in that as long as they're around she can't focus on the task at hand, but I think it's more just that she actually does like doing these tasks, and doing them alone. She's said before that it's when she "clears her head out". She does get tired too, after say a dinner party or whatever, whereas I never do. After a party I feel like I'm ready to conquer the world.

edit - though the theory in the OP seems consistent enough in itself (like BW's theories lol), it doesn't seem to really bear out reality as I've experienced it. Most EJ's I've known have liked being around people but generally don't tend to invite them back home very often - they go to work, go to school, college, church, bars - whatever - and get their people fix but seem to treat their home as a sort of private space. My guess is that it could be the J thing meaning that because they like their routinese and habits and things being 'a certain way', and because they know they can't realistically force these on the entire world or get the whole world to accommodate these preferences, that's why they like to keep their homes as a sort of space where they CAN indulge all these things, and prefer to keep people away from them as much as reasonable and polite, cos then they'd have to start 'flexing' at home, something that might be difficult or stressful. Perhaps.

Meanwhile EP's I think are the most extraverted, being the types I've seen exhibit the most hyperactive type behaviour, which I reckon results from the simple fact that we're so extremely plugged in and engaged and energized by the external world that for as long as we can keep any of our senses conscious, we're being stimulated and loving it. EP's are the people I know with the most sort of 'open house' type lives, where not only do they go out in search of stimulation but happily invite it home too, and spend very little time actually alone because they can never turn away stimulation. Maybe ExFP's more so with the human company, and ExTP's more so with just 'stuff' like say, bringing work home.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I seem very introverted. Stimulation is something I've never thought much about it. My stimulation comes mostly from some kind of creative process - which can come about in quite a few different ways. I don't actually "seek out" stimulation. I don't think I've ever been antsy because I didn't have enough stimulation. (I can always think, and that's extremely stimulating to me.) The only kind of stimulation I love is the kind that I can create myself as I move along. I like to be in control of every aspect of it. Examples of how I do this would be things like leading a group, being a comedian or performer for everyone, debating or talking, playing music, thinking, writing, ect... As long as I'm in control of it (at least my part) and it's interesting to me, I put lots of energy into it and get lots back. If I'm in a situation where I can't lead or supply the right kind of stimulation for myself, I pretty much ignore my physical environment and think while my body functions on autopilot. My brain is more stimulating than a few boring people, but the ideal situation is when I can make it seem like I've got everybody wired into my brain while I do some crazy experiment. Then there's lots of energy and fun. In short, stimulation to me means when the physical environment and other people start to feel like part of my brain. I feel connected to everything, like everything is ON, and my brain starts to feel like the universe itself. It's like jumping into a parallel universe and getting lost in it. Does that even make sense?

I've never claimed to be certain of being extroverted. Maybe my idea of stimulation being a creative act is Ne. Maybe not. But basically, if it's not creative in some way, it's boring.

 

[substitute]

Sid, I didn't meant literally going out with the thought "i crave stimulation! I need to be stimulated!" but more a case of generally not being able to sit still, either mentally or physically or both.

For example, an ISTJ friend of mine is often content to spend an afternoon just sitting in his armchair, staring out the window with nothing in particular going through his mind. He says it relaxes him. Several hours he spends, doing that. Several times a week.

For me that's something I do very rarely, usually when I've got to 'crash and burn' stage of just being too tired, too hungover or whatever, to do anything at all. And yet still, after half an hour or so, I've done all the sitting still I can handle and my mind's wandering off to solutions to problems or just thinking of things to do, planning stuff, and before long I'm on my feet again.

When you say "when the physical environment starts to feel like part of my brain", I relate to that a lot. That's what I meant when I said the stimulation doesn't have to be people.

I also relate to what you say about going onto physical autopilot when you can't control your environment. That's how I get during committee meetings. If I'm not chairing them and have no control over them, and it's a case of sitting there grating my teeth for two hours whilst nothing interesting or new whatsoever is said, I'll switch off completely to the external environment or at least the immediate goings-on, and let my brain sizzle over whatever thoughts were put on the backburner recently because there were more immediate concerns externally.

I like to spend quite a bit of time alone, but I never have the feeling that it's quite the same as when introverts do it. It doesn't usually (unless I'm specifically meditating or praying) have that 'calm, recharging' quality to it.