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  1. #71
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled You said everything I wanted to say making it sound more wise and less immature. Thank you.

    However, I admit, that from my viewpoint, I feel more inclined to note the strengths of ESTJs than vice versa, as far as seeing strengths in them I don’t posses or feel a need to develop in myself. Whereas I feel ESTJs largely will only see positives in an INFP when it happens to align with their strengths and/or preferences. This feels "uneven" and tends to make me avoid these people in person, because in an interaction, I feel sure I will have to be the one to yield & to change, and that I will be the one made to feel "wrong".
    I couldn't relate more.
    I don't naturally tend to reject people for no reason. Is more a self-protection weapon indeed.
    A lot of SJs think I am rebellious, which I may be inside my mind when I don't feel freedom of expression and being myself, but I am actually really passive, and I consider it a flaw.
    I fear getting to close to ESTJs because when I like someone I get blind and I forget what are my real values and who I really am. I don't like to be this weak, but love is somewhat scary and stronger than me.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies

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  2. #72
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled

    I'm a bit perturbed that you chose a post of mine, when 1) IMO I am a healthy ESTJ who has a fairly decent understanding of the xNFPs in my life, especially relative to the average ESTJ, and 2) I have put a lot of effort into trying to understand the MBTI types that I don't understand intuitively (INFPs and INFJs included). For the record, without the caveats at the beginning and end, your post WOULD read as a rant aimed at me. Using me as a symbol of the forces oppressing INFPs around the world.

    Discounting that, I think your above post, and my post that you quoted, are pretty good summaries of the ESTJ and INFP sides of the miscommunication. I would suspect that you're right that ESTJ Ne is key, at least in terms of our increased understanding of INFPs -- helps us see the general picture of "right" and "wrong", and let go of the small Si details that had seemed so hopelessly intertwined with our Fi values (but which don't have to be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I couldn't relate more.
    I don't naturally tend to reject people for no reason. Is more a self-protection weapon indeed.
    A lot of SJs think I am rebellious, which I may be inside my mind when I don't feel freedom of expression and being myself, but I am actually really passive, and I consider it a flaw.
    I fear getting to close to ESTJs because when I like someone I get blind and I forget what are my real values and who I really am. I don't like to be this weak, but love is somewhat scary and stronger than me.
    I'm obligated to explain on behalf of my brethren:

    We define "rebellious" as:
    1) Seeing the standard
    2) Ignoring the standard
    3) Doing whatever you want despite the standard

    So if and when we project rebelliousness on INFPs, it's because social standards are so incredibly obvious to us, that we can't understand how people wouldn't recognize them.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @OrangeAppled

    I'm a bit perturbed that you chose a post of mine, when 1) IMO I am a healthy ESTJ who has a fairly decent understanding of the xNFPs in my life, especially relative to the average ESTJ, and 2) I have put a lot of effort into trying to understand the MBTI types that I don't understand intuitively (INFPs and INFJs included). For the record, without the caveats at the beginning and end, your post WOULD read as a rant aimed at me. Using me as a symbol of the forces oppressing INFPs around the world.

    Discounting that, I think your above post, and my post that you quoted, are pretty good summaries of the ESTJ and INFP sides of the miscommunication. I would suspect that you're right that ESTJ Ne is key, at least in terms of our increased understanding of INFPs -- helps us see the general picture of "right" and "wrong", and let go of the small Si details that had seemed so hopelessly intertwined with our Fi values (but which don't have to be).


    I'm obligated to explain on behalf of my brethren:

    We define "rebellious" as:
    1) Seeing the standard
    2) Ignoring the standard
    3) Doing whatever you want despite the standard

    So if and when we project rebelliousness on INFPs, it's because social standards are so incredibly obvious to us, that we can't understand how people wouldn't recognize them.
    I don't think @OrangeAppled intended to aim such rant towards you, I guess she was trying to explain what could be the reaction of an INFP reading what you pointed out in that post. Without knowing your person first ( I didn't know you)

    Thank you for your explanation. Even though I don't consider ''rebellious'' an offensive adjective, since I am weak and passive, I admire people who can actually be called like that. That's what I meant. but yeah. I can see why you used that adjective.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  4. #74
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @OrangeAppled

    I'm a bit perturbed that you chose a post of mine, when 1) IMO I am a healthy ESTJ who has a fairly decent understanding of the xNFPs in my life, especially relative to the average ESTJ, and 2) I have put a lot of effort into trying to understand the MBTI types that I don't understand intuitively (INFPs and INFJs included). For the record, without the caveats at the beginning and end, your post WOULD read as a rant aimed at me. Using me as a symbol of the forces oppressing INFPs around the world.

    Discounting that, I think your above post, and my post that you quoted, are pretty good summaries of the ESTJ and INFP sides of the miscommunication. I would suspect that you're right that ESTJ Ne is key, at least in terms of our increased understanding of INFPs -- helps us see the general picture of "right" and "wrong", and let go of the small Si details that had seemed so hopelessly intertwined with our Fi values (but which don't have to be).


    I'm obligated to explain on behalf of my brethren:

    We define "rebellious" as:
    1) Seeing the standard
    2) Ignoring the standard
    3) Doing whatever you want despite the standard

    So if and when we project rebelliousness on INFPs, it's because social standards are so incredibly obvious to us, that we can't understand how people wouldn't recognize them.
    I used your example as a positive ESTJ example of seeing that there are different ways to reach general principles (ie the same point INFPs Peace Baby and others made, but in an INFP style), so I'm not sure why you are offended. The rest of the post was written before I even read your post, and is not in response to it, so without the beginning portion (the "caveats"), I would not have even quoted you.

    Ah, but social standards can be "obviously" not moral/ethical issues so much as arbitrary preferences some individuals successful impose on others.

    So one can see the standard, "ignore" it and choose another valid means of doing things, and still be tagged as rebellious, when really, people are offended that someone is managing to live and function without adhering to their personal preferences (which they fail to recognize as personal preferences). Lots of people agreeing on something doesn't change that it may be a personal preference; consensus doesn't make something true or right.

    IMO, the bottom line is - are all social standards valid and necessary for humanity to thrive and function and be moral/ethical? From an INFP perspective, no. In fact, some can become so limiting that they actually begin to violate the very principles they may have been created to protect. Some standards exclude other aspects of life that are important by being so demanding that there is no time/energy left for those other things, except perhaps some superficial rendering.

    I appreciate that @Arctic Hysteria noted that some "normal" expectations in life become pretentious and frivolous, much as the pursuit of art and spirituality can be deemed by many.

    Then there are many times that certain standards are valid, but people may not meet them because of extenuating circumstances - it's not a deliberate ignoring of them that is rebellious in intent. This is often acceptable when it's physical, but emotional/spiritual problems are often invalidated. There is greater awareness now of emotional/mental obstacles, but people still have more sympathy for the common flu symptoms than garden variety depression (which will affect most people at some time, just as stomach flus do). Also, just because many people are good at ordinary, everyday stuff that many standards are focused on, doesn't mean everyone is. Those who are not good at them are judged pretty harshly for it. Yet, people who have no talent or propensity for non-mundane things are not pegged as "defective", even though a huge, important part of existence is glaringly absent from their lives. This is when the standards seem to assert some things as important when they are rather frivolous, and it's likely because they are the things so many are good at, and the things they are not good at are marginalized (which tend to be the niches of many INFPs).

    Do I know ESTJs who aren't nitpicky and don't assert personal preferences? Yes, I do. But that is still my most common problem with them (and SJs in general, but as noticed ESTJs tend to have more power, to be more influential to others), and it seems we trigger these reactions in each other, whereas someone else may not set them off even if they are not adhering to these standards perfectly.

    ---
    @Yaru, IRL, I am not an aggressive person championing individuality or openly questioning/challenging standards either, but what my post is describing is quietly going about your business and some people zooming in on little things to criticize about you, and they justify this because their criteria is asserted as "objective". They refer back to this criteria, even if the bottom line has not been affected (ie the goal, even a common goal, is still being met). The more you succeed when NOT conforming to their model, they more and more they will try to make it a moral issue (because then it doesn't have to be about measurable results, which will be their first fallback).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  5. #75
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled Yes, of course. I didn't perceive your response as aggressive, and I thank you again for understanding me
    I actually would have never opened a debate myself in real life either.
    --

    I wanted to thank all the members who participated in this thread too. I feel more at peace with myself and I learned a lot from all of you. Thank you.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies

    Likes uumlau liked this post

  6. #76
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What bothers me is the polite, composed demeanor of someone who is ramming others into a mold that is totally arbitrary, but it’s under the guise of “this is THE best way and anyone who doesn’t fit it is a degenerate”.
    I second this.


    -------------


    A "rebel" is a person who opposes somebody in authority over them, does not like to obey rules, does not accept normal standards of behaviors. At first, it sounds so horrible eh? But I wonder, what kind of healthy person, or a group of people, would have this need to have authority over others, or to make them obey? There is a hell lot in life you can only inspire in people.
    Being a rebel does NOT mean s/he goes vandalize somebody's property, or gets in fights and hits people, or lives like a pig just to troll, or joins the occult, hails to satan. That's just mental disorder.
    It is in a rebel's blood to challenge the status quo, to constantly question the norms, to seek a different approach to everything, to not be afraid to stand alone, to have faith in one's own vision. Of course, all rebels, especially young ones, make mistakes along the way.

    On a forum like this, it could appear that NP have a lot against SJ, but the overall tone is "why can't you let us be who we are, appreciate what we do and quit judging us?", while in real life (most) SJ's and Fe suppress us with their question "why can't you be more like *us* and do it like *us*?".

    Life would be a bit easier if SJ can see what NP have to bring to the table, not necessarily what you want, but maybe what you need. And because it's not SJ's forte to see how all the pieces eventually come together and what's still missing, you might just need what we can offer some day.

    INFPs can thrive so much more if we don't have to try to win anybody's recognition over all the preoccupying nonsense.
    .
    | | | If it is god who makes man, this is the devil finishing touches | | |
    .
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  7. #77
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I don't know why you would feel this way about ESTJs. The ESTJ I know is a really cool guy with good morals, I don't see how he would be called controlling.
    I had to rethink a few of my typings. Now I think this so called ESTJ is actually ISTJ, and I've now typed someone as ESTJ who actually is pretty controlling. Ehh.
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  8. #78
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It is very hard to get out of this cycle when each keeps pushing the others’ button. I'm thinking there must be some Ne truce needed...
    I have to wonder about that Ne truce. Because the way I understand it, INFP's Ne is used/seen/experienced in a positive way or preference. Where as with the ESTJ, the Tertiary is seen/used as a negative way to view the world, similar to the way the ISxJs would with inferior Ne. But that could be my wrong understanding of the Tertiary function.

    I guess age also plays a factor. E.g. ESTJ at the age of 25 could be developing Ne in the same way an ISTJ would be developing Ne at the age of 35. Where as the ISTJ's Ne is negative. Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISxJ

  9. #79
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I had to rethink a few of my typings. Now I think this so called ESTJ is actually ISTJ, and I've now typed someone as ESTJ who actually is pretty controlling. Ehh.
    OOOh that's why he was so cool to you :P
    Yeah. My ISTJ sister teaches me a lot of stuff and suggests me ways to do stuff and being more practical but she is not controlling at all. She is a lot live and let live. She is a really wise young child. She likes trivia and gossip but she is so awesome that she has the right to like/do whatever she wants without seem frivolous and shallow.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  10. #80
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    I have to wonder about that Ne truce. Because the way I understand it, INFP's Ne is used/seen/experienced in a positive way or preference. Where as with the ESTJ, the Tertiary is seen/used as a negative way to view the world, similar to the way the ISxJs would with inferior Ne. But that could be my wrong understanding of the Tertiary function.

    I guess age also plays a factor. E.g. ESTJ at the age of 25 could be developing Ne in the same way an ISTJ would be developing Ne at the age of 35. Where as the ISTJ's Ne is negative. Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISxJ
    The tertiary is often referred to as the "relief" function, and while it can be negative at times, it's generally not so threatening as the inferior. The positive side of it is sort of childlike, and we may project that simplicity onto others who use it, which also makes it non-threatening. I think when you get older, it can be very complementary to your dom & aux functions. When young, you can over rely on it as a way to keep your preferred attitude (ie, an introvert will turn to their tertiary introverted function over their extroverted aux function when their dom function is not working for them, as far as how they are approaching reality/life), and it can cause you problems. Or so the theories go...

    I recall hearing an ESTJ say once that "sometimes it's so hard to see potential in people". Of course, I don't find it hard to see potential in people, so at first, I sort of balked at the idea...but then it struck me that someone wouldn't even say that if they weren't trying to see potential in people. Reeeeeaaaally trying, and not even at the point of giving up yet. Basically, this was an ESTJ consciously trying to access some ENFP-mode, and obviously, this person saw a value in adopting that mentality at times.

    I don't know if an INFP's Si mode is all that charming though. It probably just amounts to being a know-it-all and spouting off info that others don't care about.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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