User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 87

  1. #61
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I am not really familiar with the duality concept, I understand the ''opposite attracts'' but hey, isn't this a bit extreme? I cannot get duality, how can a type so distant from my values and preferences be my dual? Is it not possible to me to think about it. I hate it. I cannot stand controlling types, is something that I just can't.
    SJs are the reason I've isolated myself from society, they cant be my duals. They destroyed my self confidence and I can't imagine a future with them.
    My grandfather is an INFP and he was in a relationship with an ESTJ, she ruined his life, she didn't let him be the beautiful person he is, she is a good person and I care about her, but her presence just drains me. The same goes for my ESTJ sister and step-mother. And all the SJs out I've meet out there but my ISTJ sister. She's the only one I can save.

    I am sorry if this sounds like a venting post, I just can't understand this theory much. It would be nice if someone could explain it. Even if I won't like it probably.

    Am I mistyped? I don't know.
    How do other INFPs feel about this? Do you feel comfortable with ESTJs?
    Have you been in a relationship with an ESTJ?

    I don't hate ESTJs, I think they could be good people, but they are so not for me..
    I feel ya. I generally can understand where ESTJs come from but I can't possibly imagine dating one... I've been friends with one and acquaintances with a few and at a certain point I get bored... I do think that certain INFP enneagram do better with ESTJs than others; there are loads of INFP enneagram 9s with ESTJs but I've never heard of an INFP4w5-ESTJ romantic pairing
    Likes Arctic Hysteria liked this post

  2. #62
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    MBTI
    IxFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    EII Fi
    Posts
    670

    Default

    Hey @Yaru.
    Let's see, I'm INFP 4w5 as well (though I'm sp/sx and I don't know what yours is) I guess we speak relatively the same language.

    I don't think I know a lot of ESTJ in my life, but I do know a few SJ.
    Two examples of ESxJ are my mother who is an ESFJ, with almost balanced E-I and F-T, and my long-term friend who is ESTJ, with rather balanced T-F. They are both very strong J.

    Let me tell you, all SJ they are obsessed with structure and logic, in one way or another. If it's not about how things should be done around the house, it'll be how things should be done at work, or how things should logically be in life, their own life and somebody's else life. To them, there's a right way and there's a wrong way to almost everything. "I have to be logical and secured to survive", it's their mantra. Sometimes, the word "perfect" will be added into that.
    So what is INFP e4's mantra? "I have to be unique, free and appreciated to survive". For us, things like etiquette, social expectations, logic and reasons can sometimes cage self expression and creativity, kill opportunity and sublimation.
    To be honest, sometimes, these things are downright pretentious. Put your coffee mug here, take your elbows off the table, vacuum your house precisely in the morning on every odd day, visit aunt Mary uncle Frank and their 12 children and grandchildren because that's what family is about, be a doctor, or a dentist, or a lawyer, or at least any career that sounds like you've been 4+ years in college and you work in a "professional" environment.

    To hell with that shit.

    As if a person does all that shit, they pass the human quality control investigation and unquestionably is a good person, a good daughter/son, a good candidate for being a spouse.
    And in response to that, I'd like to put both elbows on the table, vacuum sometimes twice a day sometimes once a month, and become a farmer just to mess with them.

    But luckily, I myself am an INFP who actually prefers some structure and logic in my life, while the SJ I've got to know are far from conformists. They all happen to be SJ who long for a little more freedom and depth in life. They all have their quirks and "crazy" too. I've never met a Dr. Phil or non-fictional Dolores Umbridge in real life and I wish I never will, otherwise I'd hurt their feelings.

    I believe that, unless you forever remain strangers, as friends or lovers, you will always naturally influence each other. They will give you a little bit of them, you will give them a little bit of you. And that has nothing to do with "wanting to change somebody". People, regardless of their differences, want to find and build common ground in the process of growing closer. There are SJ who love it when INFP sow an unconventional idea into their mind, introduce them to things they'd never try alone, alleviate their stress and worry with random unexpected fun. You might appreciate it, when sometimes it seems so hard to get off the ground, get back and stay on track, or when you're too afraid to confront and stand up for yourself, they'll be there. The key to this interdependence is that they both know they will be much better people with some of the opposite qualities in the other person.

    It is great when INFP provides spontaneity and expressions, while the SJ provides stability and protection. It is hell if it's identity crisis vs. rigidity, the need for affection vs. rationalization.

    One must realize that a philosophical and free-spirited artist can be an absolute asshole; and that a law abiding, successful and orderly citizen can be an absolute asshole too. It all comes down to whether or not you respect others and do everything with dignity.

    I hope that more STJ and NFP duos will realize that they are not opposite, but rather yin and yang.
    NFP must realize that taking risks doesn't mean putting yourself or loved ones at the risk of getting asthma and infection from dusty and cluttered living space, and sometimes follow our effort instead of our passion for a change. SJ must understand that there is nothing healthy about seeing things or people in simply black and white, or living by "rules" and putting feelings to the back of their mind thinking they'll never have to deal with them that way.
    .
    | | | If it is god who makes man, this is the devil finishing touches | | |
    .
    Likes Yaru, uumlau, EJCC, Chanaynay, chubber and 1 others liked this post

  3. #63
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    Hey @Yaru.
    Let's see, I'm INFP 4w5 as well (though I'm sp/sx and I don't know what yours is) I guess we speak relatively the same language.

    I don't think I know a lot of ESTJ in my life, but I do know a few SJ.
    Two examples of ESxJ are my mother who is an ESFJ, with almost balanced E-I and F-T, and my long-term friend who is ESTJ, with rather balanced T-F. They are both very strong J.

    Let me tell you, all SJ they are obsessed with structure and logic, in one way or another. If it's not about how things should be done around the house, it'll be how things should be done at work, or how things should logically be in life, their own life and somebody's else life. To them, there's a right way and there's a wrong way to almost everything. "I have to be logical and secured to survive", it's their mantra. Sometimes, the word "perfect" will be added into that.
    So what is INFP e4's mantra? "I have to be unique, free and appreciated to survive". For us, things like etiquette, social expectations, logic and reasons can sometimes cage self expression and creativity, kill opportunity and sublimation.
    To be honest, sometimes, these things are downright pretentious. Put your coffee mug here, take your elbows off the table, vacuum your house precisely in the morning on every odd day, visit aunt Mary uncle Frank and their 12 children and grandchildren because that's what family is about, be a doctor, or a dentist, or a lawyer, or at least any career that sounds like you've been 4+ years in college and you work in a "professional" environment.

    To hell with that shit.

    As if a person does all that shit, they pass the human quality control investigation and unquestionably a good person, a good daughter/son, a good candidate for being a spouse.
    And in response to that, I'd like to put both elbows on the table, vacuum sometimes twice a day sometimes once a month, and become a farmer just to mess with them.

    But luckily, I myself am an INFP who actually prefers some structure and logic in my life, while the SJ I've got to know are far from conformists. They all happen to be SJ who long for a little more freedom and depth in life. They all have their quirks and "crazy" too. I've never met a Dr. Phil or non-fictional Dolores Umbridge in real life and I wish I never will, otherwise I'd hurt their feelings.

    I believe that, unless you forever remain strangers, as friends or lovers, you will always naturally influence each other. They will give you a little bit of them, you will give them a little bit of you. And that has nothing to do with "wanting to change somebody". People, regardless of their differences, want to find and build common ground in the process of growing closer. There are SJ who love it when INFP sow an unconventional idea into their mind, introduce them to things they'd never try alone, alleviate their stress and worry with random unexpected fun. You might appreciate it when sometimes it seems so hard to get off the ground, get back and stay on track, or when you're too afraid to confront and stand up for yourself, they'll be there. The key to this interdependence is that they both know they will be much better people with some of the opposite qualities in the other person.

    It is great when INFP provides spontaneity and expressions, while the SJ provides stability and protection. It is hell if it's identity crisis vs. rigidity, the need for affection vs. rationalization.

    One must realize that an philosophical and free-spirited artist can be an absolute asshole; and that a law abiding, successful and orderly citizen can be an absolute asshole too. It all comes down to whether or not you respect others and do everything with dignity.

    I hope that more STJ and NFP duos will realize that they are not the opposite, but rather yin and yang.
    NFP must realize that taking risks doesn't mean putting yourself or loved ones at the risk of getting asthma and infection from dusty and cluttered living space, and sometimes follow our effort instead of our passion for a change. SJ must understand that there is nothing healthy about seeing things or people in simply black and white, or living by "rules" and putting feelings to the back of their mind thinking they'll never have to deal with them that way.
    Thank you for your comprehension and carefully written response.
    I think I am sx/so but Im not sure.
    I agree with you, though I must say, dusty places etc. Don´t give you athsma but increase your resistance. Did you ever asked why those poor kids that are always covered in mud and half dressed and half naked playing in puddles are way more healthy than the regular fragile over-protected child? They swallow cheewing gums at age 2 run naked along the sea shore at 10 pm and they hardly notice any difference. We have a saying that says ''Bad weed never dies''.
    This is irrelevant anyway, because I won't raise my children like that... But we do need to experience different things in life.
    I used to love my grandfather´s dusty, messy, covered in paint house. It was something incredibly inspiring to me, and the values were reversed everytime I went visit him. They went from ''Clean enviroment, appareance, family'' to ''Be yourself, be happy without shame, We have nothing but appreciate what we have''
    I lived most of my life with SJs, and everyone else told me they were destroying me, that I had to leave. But it was hard. Because I cared about them. I knew they cared and they were just overprotective. But I had to cut it out. I am 20 and I barely have any independence because of their controlling urges. I always did what they told me and it was never good enough.
    My father is an IxFP and he married an ESTJ when I was 8, so I saw the change in him, and I never liked it. He is completely repressed. He thinks he changed to be better but she is just manipulating him to be the way she wants.
    I also saw the way around. My mother was an ESFJ (F and T balanced too), my father was still a true IxFP, and she had to become a musician because he wanted her to. She had to live a messy life, to strive to raise me up decently among my father´s mess and inadecuateness. (they lived with a friend because my father didnt want to work to pay the rent and the friend did) That whole thing just drained her. Now she is living with another IxFP and she can't take it anymore, she cries everyday and she can't still get rid of him. Same thing with my grandfather. So, I know I can understand both perspectives, and I can´t support SJ and INFP relationships. It´s absurd to me. Opposites attract to some degree. And there may be some SJs and NFPs trhat love each other and are healthy one another, but I think its more rare than it seems. (The codependent partner will hardly admit that they are having a hard time.)
    Even because to make duality work I think you may have to be raised under a glass bell far away from life traumas and everything that could affect your psyche.
    Anyway, since I am really devoted I cannot imagine myself being with another man right now, so maybe that´s part of why I can´t see it.
    And I spent so many years trying to run away from the SJ world, it was hard and traumatic, marrying an SJ would be ridiculous and self insulting to me, after all the effort to escape from their world. I never come back from where I´m from. I always look forward to something new in my life.
    (Now I came back to my home country because I didn´t have choice, but is a struggle for me to have good dreams at night.)

    I know anyone is telling me to marry an SJ, I am just analyzing possibilities.
    I like to have some structure too, but only when I say so.
    My best friend is an INFJ, she always tried to behave and look like an INTJ, a few years ago she was very logic and kind of OCD, but deep down her soul was the one of an artist. And I really admired her. Sometimes I would try to be like her, and I would get mad because it was so hard to me. But what I liked about her structure was that was innocent and just for herself. She didn´t mind other people´s messes or anything like that. She is so humble.

    (totally detached question: is it normal to me to always score IEI in socionics? Can an INFP be IEI? )

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  4. #64
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    1,862

    Default

    You want someone who is as opposite to you as possible, right?

    Using socionics' model of the functions:
    INFP = Fi Ne Ti Se

    Now, any P type will have the same four functions in their consciousness, so the difference is greater in J types.

    An NJ or FJ or IJ though, shares the property of having a strong N, F, or I function.

    But, you could also say, a rational type shares the property of having a strong rational function.

    So why is ESTJ the best match, not ISTJ? Which is more different from INFP?

    ISTJ = Si Te Ni Fe
    ESTJ = Te Si Fe Ni

    I think perhaps having a rational function first is not really a trait, so since one is F and one is T, they still count as different. F is the opposite of T, N is the opposite of S. They are more different from each other than the judging functions are then.

    Perhaps the very idea of rational and irrational functions is misled? Hm hm hm... Rational and irrational functions maybe are just constructs used to express the idea that F is opposite T and N is opposite S? Like putting blue and orange on one axis, green and red on another, purple and yellow on another, black and white on another.
    Likes Yaru liked this post

  5. #65
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sp
    Posts
    2,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    And in response to that, I'd like to put both elbows on the table, vacuum sometimes twice a day sometimes once a month, and become a farmer just to mess with them.
    Have you ever considered railroading instead? Intermodal is setting new traffic volume records.

    But luckily, I myself am an INFP who actually prefers some structure and logic in my life, while the SJ I've got to know are far from conformists. They all happen to be SJ who long for a little more freedom and depth in life. They all have their quirks and "crazy" too. I've never met a Dr. Phil or non-fictional Dolores Umbridge in real life and I wish I never will, otherwise I'd hurt their feelings.
    I'm pretty sure my best friend is an ISTJ 5w6 sp/so (I'm guessing 5-1-3). I think being a 5 makes him more cerebral and eccentric than the typical SJ. He says that at Thanksgiving dinner he likes to mix all his food together just to irritate people.

    One must realize that a philosophical and free-spirited artist can be an absolute asshole; and that a law abiding, successful and orderly citizen can be an absolute asshole too. It all comes down to whether or not you respect others and do everything with dignity.
    I lean toward the Viktor Frankl philosophy that there are basically two kinds of people: decent and indecent.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  6. #66
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lulabelle View Post
    I feel ya. I generally can understand where ESTJs come from but I can't possibly imagine dating one... I've been friends with one and acquaintances with a few and at a certain point I get bored... I do think that certain INFP enneagram do better with ESTJs than others; there are loads of INFP enneagram 9s with ESTJs but I've never heard of an INFP4w5-ESTJ romantic pairing
    Yeah. I can be friends pretty much with everyone if they treat me well. I like people really easily actually. I just hate when they say ''Oh ESTJ is the dual so is perfect'' No. Hell. No. Don't predict my future, I want to find things out my own. What's the point in living if everything i already said? Prove it wrong. Am I right?

    Anyway I couldn't be in a relationship with an ESTJ, and if I was I would be the codependent, submissive lady without personality. And I don't want to.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  7. #67
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    292

    Default

    CONCLUSION: I think I need to get to know more ESTJ people that aren't assholes like my step-mother.
    Because I may reject the whole humanity in my head, but when I actually get closer to humans I kinda like them all.

    I won't marry an ESTJ because I'm already taken though.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies

    Likes uumlau, Chanaynay, EJCC liked this post

  8. #68
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    CONCLUSION: I think I need to get to know more ESTJ people that aren't assholes like my step-mother.
    Because I may reject the whole humanity in my head, but when I actually get closer to humans I kinda like them all.
    Wise words from a good person.

    I won't marry an ESTJ because I'm already taken though.
    Heheheh. It's more about understanding how "your opposite" is a part of you, the same way your reflection in the mirror is always part of you. No one is suggesting marriage any more than we'd suggest your marrying your reflection in the mirror.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
    Likes Yaru liked this post

  9. #69
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Wise words from a good person.



    Heheheh. It's more about understanding how "your opposite" is a part of you, the same way your reflection in the mirror is always part of you. No one is suggesting marriage any more than we'd suggest your marrying your reflection in the mirror.
    :O....
    This changes everything!
    Are you suggesting that any INFP should marry ESTJs because it's equal to narcissism? Darn, now that I was just getting into them.

    Hahah, just kidding.
    I am sorry, sometimes I get really passionate with certain topics, like the time I accidentally fell in love with a guy with Aspergers and I started to unconditionally defend any autistic person on earth, trying to convince people they were better than the regular person.

    You don't want me to be the leader of a country.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  10. #70
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Two things:

    1) The more you learn about typology, the more you learn that its best use is as a language with which we can describe ourselves, others, and our similarities and differences. So really all you need to do in order to have these conversations with the STJs in your life is find synonyms. It will help to have those conversations calmly and rationally, without seeming like you're blaming them for anything -- your relationships with others are always a two-way street.

    2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong. So when you say "it's because I'm an INFP that I act this way", or however you translate that to the vernacular (see my first point), the STJs in your life might react with "no, actually, that has nothing to do with type, and everything to do with being a responsible adult"*. And both of you would be right, to an extent. On their side, it IS important for you to live safely, healthily, and responsibly, and being an INFP is a terrible excuse for living like a man-child (or whatever the female equivalent is). On your side, the "get it done" function (Te) will always be your last, so even if you get really good at accomplishing Te tasks efficiently (like @PeaceBaby ), it'll still be unpleasant and "wrong" in some ways.

    *If I could summarize the things that your STJ relatives want you to do, it would be this: "Live safely, healthily, and responsibly." Each of those list items is a manifestation of that priority. Edit: If and when your STJ relatives come around, it'll be when they realize that that principle is more important than each of its parts -- so as long as you live safely, healthily, and responsibly overall, it doesn't matter if you leave out individual items that they would consider safe/healthy/responsible.
    @PeaceBaby & others kind of beat me to a point I was typing up....but I'm posting it anyway.
    This post here is not embodying what I am going to bring up, but it does show how we tend to think of our own way/view as "right" and something else as being "obviously wrong", when, well, it may not be objective at all. You touch on this also, but the wording exemplifies an ESTJ view better than Peacebaby's does.

    And now, my novella:

    From my viewpoint, ESTJs' inferior Fi can lead them to assert their personal preferences as a moral/ethical standard. In order to accept & fulfill their own personal feelings, their psychology “converts” it into an objectively correct model, and they will go to impressive lengths to back this up with “facts” and “logic”. So much of it is preference for what they are familiar and experienced with (Si). It really has no moral value. An illustration of this is how countries in the past would colonize other lands and degrade the colonized land as “less civilized” because the colonialists had set up their experience of life and their preferences as “normal” and even as more moral.

    This is something many SJs demonstrate in their attitudes, but it’s scariest in ESTJs because they make good arguments for it. They convince and lead others with this thinking. They convince themselves this is “for their own good” too, effectively dismissing those who do not comply as being rebellious in a self-destructive way.

    I suppose I feel I see through this and recognize they are veiling personal preferences with objective rules that force others to conform.

    I feel this “rebelliousness” or “bad attitude” projected onto me and that is what I find hurtful and what makes me angry.

    I can deal with moods in people - irritability, snappiness, bluntness - that’s fine. What bothers me is the polite, composed demeanor of someone who is ramming others into a mold that is totally arbitrary, but it’s under the guise of “this is THE best way and anyone who doesn’t fit it is a degenerate”.

    So from my perspective, I am going about my business, not harming anyone, but the ESTJ takes issue with my pants (or something equally petty). I had one almost blow a gasket because they felt my pants had too many pockets - 5 pockets instead of 4, which made her classify them as “casual”, despite the material, cut, and overall look of the pants.

    That example also illustrates the next issue I tend to experience with ESTJs: black and white thinking. Anyone can fall into this, but it’s really a trap for ESTJs because of their ego’s need to turn their personal feelings into objective standards. They have to try and practically define these standards for others to follow, and in doing so, they may set up very nitpicky criteria. They put excessive thought into creating lines & boundaries for what is what, that way there is no room for others to sneak in their own preferences. The more others are just like them, the more at ease they seem to be, but they don’t recognize this as being about their own egos or emotions. They hide beyond an argument that this is somehow totally necessary because it makes things better somehow - more functional, more moral, etc. Sure - it’s better for them! It’s funny how IxFPs can get pegged as selfish, when this is the sort of thing I am loath to do.

    Not all ESTJs are like this or they are not characterized by it even if it pops up at times in them, but enough of them are like that - and in positions of leadership to influence and, er, bully others - that it makes one wary of both them and their institutions (which in all honesty may have noble aims and great value to humanity). It’s all fine and well to “give up oneself” for a good cause, for something greater than yourself, but I don’t see ESTJs giving up themselves. I see them asserting their preferences as the standard for all, and everyone else is expected to give up themselves to meet this, which is justified, again, by claiming this is the objectively correct way.

    When I say that ESTJs need to get in touch with their feelings, I don’t mean becoming a sympathetic nicey-nice person who talks about emotions and doesn't use any critical thinking to apply judgement - I mean they need to identify that many of their values are rooted in personal preferences. They need to understand why they feel a certain way, how they came to feel that way, and that often it has little or no moral/ethical value and there is no justification for pushing it on others. Feelings here are attachments of meaning they assign to things, not merely emotions. But suddenly, things become "dangerous", "unhealthy" and "irresponsible" because they don't fit the ESTJ's preferences.*

    Healthy Fi recognizes the deep, deep principle behind a personal feeling, and that only when stripped down to its bare bones can there be any universal moral/ethical/meaningful value. Healthy Fi recognizes the myriad of ways people meet these and that differences in meeting them do not have to threaten one another. An ESTJ with healthy Fi will recognize that they must learn to tolerate preferences of others that differ from their own, to see the base value in them & that at core, they are often getting as essentially the same need, just in a different way. They have to identify when they feel threatened by these differences and are trying to create justifications and rules to get people to conform to their preferences.

    When they don’t do that, they create a hell for IxFPs, not because we’re necessarily rebellious (how can that be so when we’re so awfully passive and conflict-avoident, according to others?), but because we’re operating from the idea that we ARE meeting the “universal” standards, but that there is no one way to do it, and so it’s hard to fathom why they are becoming critical and judgmental towards us. When they try to oppress an IxFP to get them to conform, the IxFP doesn’t experience it as them trying to help the IxFP to function better in life, it’s experienced as someone shoving their personal preferences down our throats, under a guise of it being objective. This guise and how many others buy into it is equally maddening. You definitely feel like it’s an “emperor who has no clothes on” situation. This is likely why the ESTJ is so threatened by IxFPs - they recognize that in simply being ourselves, we are setting an example that you can be moral/ethical/functional and not totally conform, and that threatens the structure of system, which is fueled by their ego. It forces them to look at their rules as possibly just being their personal preferences, and I suppose that is way too uncomfortable. Instead, they project rebelliousness onto the IxFP and deem them a bad influence or disruptive presence, simply because the IxFP has 5 pockets on their pants (for reeeeeal!).

    Now I realize that in saying this, I am essentially wishing the ESTJ was more like, well, me, or the positive side of an IxFP. There is a paradox in this. A truth in this is that their inferior Fi means that if they were well-developed people, then they very likely would be balanced by this trait, so that their Te strengths would shine even more. Instead of hung up on policing people over petty stuff and repressing angry emotion to maintain a composed exterior until they finally blow a gasket over something especially petty, then they may actually get important stuff done and diffuse negative emotion by understanding its real source, so that they composed exterior is from a real calmness within. I do think deeper Si development helps here (beyond the initial - "my experiences are what is normal and reliable"), as long as the person is exposed to a variety of things, because they will internalize that what is normal, reliable, etc, in the human experiences is a myriad of things, not a narrow scope. This eases up the "threat" of Fi.

    Another truth in this is that people would benefit from being more like an ESTJ too - in certain strengths of Te, but not down to every detail. People would be more well-rounded if they possessed many of the strengths in other types. The ESTJ/INFP conflict is that each reflects the blindspot of the other, and instead of seeing the merit in the other, they tend to turn that merit into a threat to their own preferences.

    However, I admit, that from my viewpoint, I feel more inclined to note the strengths of ESTJs than vice versa, as far as seeing strengths in them I don’t posses or feel a need to develop in myself. Whereas I feel ESTJs largely will only see positives in an INFP when it happens to align with their strengths and/or preferences. This feels "uneven" and tends to make me avoid these people in person, because in an interaction, I feel sure I will have to be the one to yield & to change, and that I will be the one made to feel "wrong". If I challenge them (which I have no problem with, surprise, surprise), then I will further dig a hole for myself as far as them painting me a rebel and disruptive force. I think @Southern Kross noted that the e8 ESTJ(s) she knows respect her when she challenges them (or something like that), but I think I have dealt heavily with e1s and with some e6s & e3s. e3s are probably the easiest for me to deal with.

    *As a side, preoccupation with such things as health, safety, and so-called responsibility can strike me as materialistic, and I don't mean being money/status focused (although it would include that). It's all physical, physical, physical. People focused on these things reduce life to eating a certain way, doing or not doing certain activities, doing certain tasks a certain way for their job, etc. They reduce spirituality to community rituals & adhering to its social values (which generally give moral value to their preferences). They reduce art to entertainment and commercialism. This must be done so as to justify their over-focus on the physical, physical, physical. People who focus on things outside that are now unsafe, unhealthy, and irresponsible. This is not a mini-rant on ESTJs specifically - but how the focus of a more typical IxFP is often marginalized socially, and thus, our strengths and contributions are devalued and we're accused of possessing a slew of negative attitudes.

    It is very hard to get out of this cycle when each keeps pushing the others’ button. I'm thinking there must be some Ne truce needed...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
    Likes Yaru, Arctic Hysteria liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. [INFP] Is it common for INFPs to behave like ESTJs in social environments?
    By Yaru in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-10-2015, 09:12 AM
  2. [INFJ] INFJ + ENFP = Transcendental Romance. INFJ + ESTJ = Duality. Any thoughts?
    By finalfantasy in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 113
    Last Post: 08-26-2011, 05:28 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO