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  1. #51
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    My husband is interested in this to a point, but not really. We have known we are different even before knowing about personality types. He just likes my brand of weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?
    I hear you and understand very much where you are coming from. But you do want them to change. You want them to be like you. I know this because I have wanted that too. You want them to be as open, accepting, tolerant and flexible as you perceive yourself to be, and indeed you likely very much embody those qualities. In that, there is found your rigidity. Can you accept that they will never be able to do this as you do? Can you still love and accept them anyway, and thus love and accept yourself? You cannot ask a fish to be a bird. And the time it takes for that level of transformation ... a lifetime, maybe 1000 lifetimes.

    Here's another way of looking at things. There are only two ways to change a system: from the inside or the outside. From the inside, you get the benefit of the structure J-types provide, with some annoying collateral concerns to focus on, such as what they expect of you - responsibilities of cleaning, regular employment etc etc. From the outside, you get the benefit of tossing the structure of others, but you will quickly discover you need some kind of structure, and you'll have to make your own structure in order to survive. You can't evade the Te aspect of living. You'll have to learn to deal with it one way or another.

    Realize that when an SJ rejects some of your choices, they aren't rejecting you, they are rejecting their inferior functions. Can you try to not take it personally? I know this will likely take you many years, and even now at my age, I'm still not always good at taking such criticisms impersonally. I am and always shall be weird. And you know, it's ok.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My husband is interested in this to a point, but not really. We have known we are different even before knowing about personality types. He just likes my brand of weird.



    I hear you and understand very much where you are coming from. But you do want them to change. You want them to be like you. I know this because I have wanted that too. You want them to be as open, accepting, tolerant and flexible as you perceive yourself to be, and indeed you likely very much embody those qualities. In that, there is found your rigidity. Can you accept that they will never be able to do this as you do? Can you still love and accept them anyway, and thus love and accept yourself? You cannot ask a fish to be a bird. And the time it takes for that level of transformation ... a lifetime, maybe 1000 lifetimes.

    Here's another way of looking at things. There are only two ways to change a system: from the inside or the outside. From the inside, you get the benefit of the structure J-types provide, with some annoying collateral concerns to focus on, such as what they expect of you - responsibilities of cleaning, regular employment etc etc. From the outside, you get the benefit of tossing the structure of others, but you will quickly discover you need some kind of structure, and you'll have to make your own structure in order to survive. You can't evade the Te aspect of living. You'll have to learn to deal with it one way or another.

    Realize that when an SJ rejects some of your choices, they aren't rejecting you, they are rejecting their inferior functions. Can you try to not take it personally? I know this will likely take you many years, and even now at my age, I'm still not always good at taking such criticisms impersonally. I am and always shall be weird. And you know, it's ok.
    I do accept them.
    I am mostly talking about my mother.
    I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
    The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

    I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
    I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
    I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
    But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  3. #53
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I can understand what you are saying.
    It isn't an excuse. It may seem like it.
    Isn't living irresponsibly, is just living differently.
    I could have a stable work, a wealthy and healthy life, but be incredibly unhappy.
    I´d rather have white bread and be happy than have wealth through vexation.
    I´d rather live a risky life and try to do what most people never dare to do rather than being safe in your stable life, which is the equivalent of being unsafe from yourself, because that leads to disappointment, depression and unhappiness.
    Isn´t an excuse, is just knowing what is healthy for oneself.
    Why do I procastinate? Because I´d rather procastinate and achieve knowledge and values from the time I spent procastinating, than doing everything in time and right in the moment and just gain and amount of stress that I just can´t handle.
    I did live the way they wanted me to, and that is why I am now so emotionally unstable.
    Our brain and body are wise, one should just learn to read the signs and get the lifestyle that it more suitable for them.
    If you re-read my post, you'll see that you don't need to convince me of anything. I was trying to explain where your STJ relatives are coming from, and how you can better communicate with them.

    It also sounds like a lot more of this is based on type 4, than INFP. You sound very much like a young and rebellious 4. (Is 6 in your tritype, by the way?) I don't understand 4s all that well, so I'm probably not the right person to talk to about how 4s and SJs can get along better.

    This might be redundant, but if you want to get along with your family, you probably won't do so by constantly rebelling against them and everything they stand for. You don't have to either completely embrace their way of life, or reject it entirely. There's middle ground there. But as of right now, it sounds like getting along with them isn't your goal. Or at least, what you're doing isn't terribly conducive to it. Edit: I essentially meant what @PeaceBaby said, but she said it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I do accept them.
    I am mostly talking about my mother.
    I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
    The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

    I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
    I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
    I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
    But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.
    Ah -- didn't read the entire thread, so didn't see that you're in a bit of a transitory period. Yes, absolutely, do your own thing. Live the way that works for you. But don't reject absolutely everything your parents suggest, on principle. It's not "your way" or "your mother's way". There are gray areas, and finding the best way for you to live will depend on your ability to see those gray areas objectively.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!
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  4. #54
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I can sense you'll likely want to step away from this conversation soon @Yaru as you may be feeling somewhat frustrated and misunderstood. Just take a little time to think about what I said above. I do hear you, and I empathize with you deeply. I am saying you don't accept them - yes, you accept that they are different, and you love them, but you really don't accept that they are wired the way they are wired. And that is perfectly ok, it's not a criticism of you at all. I'll leave you with that for now, let it cogitate in your mind for a bit. Are things harder for us in this way? Very much yes. Can you still navigate the J waters and be yourself? Yes. But it will not be like flicking a light switch, and you will bump around in the dark from time to time your whole life, probably. (Like everyone else too on some point or other.)

    Sending hugs to you, sorry these words are likely not enough to help you feel heard, but I feel you in there.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  5. #55
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ Seconded.

    @Yaru I'll step out of the thread, too. I honestly can't do anything except speak STJ speak, so my language is probably setting you off. Apologies for that.

    (But for the record, PB knows a lot about this and I would trust her expert opinion. )
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I know this is an SJ world and they rule.
    Fuck that noise.
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  7. #57
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I do accept them.
    I am mostly talking about my mother.
    I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
    The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

    I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
    I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
    I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
    But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.
    Yeah, no one is saying you have to accept anyone. We're more or less pointing out WHY you find these things annoying, and eventually you'll figure out how to handle them in ways that don't annoy you (as much).

    Oh, and w/r to your mother, that's your MOTHER. Everyone has issues at your time of life with parents, no matter how good they were as kids, there is a strong tension and a need to break away. Part of what comes with breaking away is learning that, um, hey, waitaminute ... all these things I'm used to happening on their own will only happen if *I* do them. Crap. (I'm an INTJ, the "Mastermind", and even I went through this. My Dad is INTP and Mom was INFJ. They were "live and let live", too, but they were my parents, so I didn't get to see that much of that side of them until I was much older. That said, I manage money WAY better than either of them ever did ... )

    As Mark Twain put it:
    When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
    In the modern era, that's probably more like 20 and 30 instead of 14 and 21, but the same principle applies.

    Note that I'm not even applying typology here. This is humanity. This is growing up. The main takeaway from this is to know that you'll figure this all out for yourself, on your own time, but until then it's going to be kind of frustrating. You'll eventually have a conversation where you finally gain this understanding, and say to your Mom, "Why didn't you tell me?!" and she'll reply, "I did. Over and over again."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In the modern era, that's probably more like 20 and 30 instead of 14 and 21, but the same principle applies.

    Note that I'm not even applying typology here. This is humanity. This is growing up. The main takeaway from this is to know that you'll figure this all out for yourself, on your own time, but until then it's going to be kind of frustrating. You'll eventually have a conversation where you finally gain this understanding, and say to your Mom, "Why didn't you tell me?!" and she'll reply, "I did. Over and over again."
    This is an interesting quote. Well. I think I need to point out that my parents are rather young, and they have been quite immature, and I always saw it since I was a kid. And I kind of find lame some of their choices or behaviors.
    My mother is incredibly immature. And I can say that that was me the one always telling her what she should be doing... but she never listened to me.
    When she was in her middle 20s she left the country with a random leaving me without a mother when I needed one the most.
    2 years ago she had the possibility to fix it, but instead she chose to run away with someone else once again.
    She wishes me to live a organized and disciplined life because that's what she hears is the right thing to do from the others. He has no personality. She is the personality she has around at the moment. If her man hates me she would hate me.
    That's why I said that such theories are difficult to apply in the real life, because one never knows the oddities that could be going on in other people's lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ^ Seconded.

    @Yaru I'll step out of the thread, too. I honestly can't do anything except speak STJ speak, so my language is probably setting you off. Apologies for that.

    (But for the record, PB knows a lot about this and I would trust her expert opinion. )
    No worries, I accept every kind of feed back. I just need some time to absorb all different information, sometimes cognitive dissonance could be hard to deal with, but it is useful to overcome it even if I will still think my way or in a similar way at least.
    I don't know actually. I just once took an enneagram test and said 4w5, but I never made any further research.
    I have no idea about how 6 are like.
    I am rebellious only when I don't see open possibilities. It's like I get claustrophobic. I can accept whatever reality as long as I see different open options.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I can sense you'll likely want to step away from this conversation soon @Yaru as you may be feeling somewhat frustrated and misunderstood. Just take a little time to think about what I said above. I do hear you, and I empathize with you deeply. I am saying you don't accept them - yes, you accept that they are different, and you love them, but you really don't accept that they are wired the way they are wired. And that is perfectly ok, it's not a criticism of you at all. I'll leave you with that for now, let it cogitate in your mind for a bit. Are things harder for us in this way? Very much yes. Can you still navigate the J waters and be yourself? Yes. But it will not be like flicking a light switch, and you will bump around in the dark from time to time your whole life, probably. (Like everyone else too on some point or other.)

    Sending hugs to you, sorry these words are likely not enough to help you feel heard, but I feel you in there.
    Thank you. I appreciate this.
    Yeah it can be tiring because I am not used to debate as much. Debating is a total new thing that my INTP partner introduced to me when we met, and that I accepted because I knew he respected my values, and I started understanding the way he sees debates. He would start a random debate that would sound serious even if it's about a completely illogical theoretical situation, just to train me to stimulate my way of thinking and try different perspectives. He wanted me to find ways to convince him of stuff that isn't necessarily true, just to prove I can make my ideas stand out.
    That's because before I was always trying to avoid any kind of conflict.
    I was the child that during class debates would just sit around and be quiet, hoping for someone else to express the ideas I had in mind because I don't like fighting with people, I don't like having any kind of troubles, and I never thought anyone could ever listen to my voice anyway. And I am really emotional so I would just start crying. I always cry while arguing about something I believe important. Even if the other person agrees with me.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  9. #59
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    And I am really emotional so I would just start crying. I always cry while arguing about something I believe important. Even if the other person agrees with me.
    Me too. It's ok.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  10. #60
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    I am not really familiar with the duality concept, I understand the ''opposite attracts'' but hey, isn't this a bit extreme? I cannot get duality, how can a type so distant from my values and preferences be my dual? Is it not possible to me to think about it. I hate it. I cannot stand controlling types, is something that I just can't.
    SJs are the reason I've isolated myself from society, they cant be my duals. They destroyed my self confidence and I can't imagine a future with them.
    My grandfather is an INFP and he was in a relationship with an ESTJ, she ruined his life, she didn't let him be the beautiful person he is, she is a good person and I care about her, but her presence just drains me. The same goes for my ESTJ sister and step-mother. And all the SJs out I've meet out there but my ISTJ sister. She's the only one I can save.

    I am sorry if this sounds like a venting post, I just can't understand this theory much. It would be nice if someone could explain it. Even if I won't like it probably.

    Am I mistyped? I don't know.
    How do other INFPs feel about this? Do you feel comfortable with ESTJs?
    Have you been in a relationship with an ESTJ?

    I don't hate ESTJs, I think they could be good people, but they are so not for me..
    I feel ya. I generally can understand where ESTJs come from, but I can't possibly imagine dating one... I've been friends with one and acquaintances with a few and at a certain point I get bored... I do think that certain INFP enneagram do better with ESTJs and others; I've never heard of an INFP4w5-ESTJ romantic pairing
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