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  1. #41
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    ISTJs are awesome.

    That is all.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member robowolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    Yesterday two ESxx girls came visit my family, they were 14 and 16. They didn't know me and after 2 minutes started asking me why was I weird, if I had some form of selective mutism, and if I was younger than they are.
    How can it be possible to me to feel embarrassed and inferior in presence of some young teen girls? It's just dumb. And with males is like a thousand times worse.
    Teen girls can be very shallow and judgemental (not all of them of course), especially if they're in groups of 2+, and if they're ESxx they won't even bother trying to hide it.

    To stay on topic: probably an ESTJ-INFP relationship would be draining at first, but once both partners learn to get along without pushing each other's buttons it should become easier. I guess at that point the ESTJ would help the INFP develop their Te, while the INFP would help the ESTJ develop their Fi.

    (besides, who wouldn't want an ESJ in their life to take care of all the social and boring stuff?)
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robowolf View Post
    Teen girls can be very shallow and judgemental (not all of them of course), especially if they're in groups of 2+, and if they're ESxx they won't even bother trying to hide it.

    To stay on topic: probably an ESTJ-INFP relationship would be draining at first, but once both partners learn to get along without pushing each other's buttons it should become easier. I guess at that point the ESTJ would help the INFP develop their Te, while the INFP would help the ESTJ develop their Fi.

    (besides, who wouldn't want an ESJ in their life to take care of all the social and boring stuff?)
    Yeah those kids were really arrogant. And they thought they were cool because they smoke and drink at their young age. I may understand that they could have problems with their families etc, but I did too when I was their age, and I NEVER ever thought of doing stuff like that because I knew what was right and what was wrong. I didn't need people to tell me anything.

    A lot of types can help INFPs to develop their Te, and they don't have to necessarily be your partners. That´s my whole point. My relationship with my ISTJ sister works like that, and it´s awesome because when I get tired of her world I can just do my stuff and go see the people I want to have more in-depth conversations with and I am not committed with her in anyway. So that's a relationship I don't mind.

    My INTP partner takes care of all the boring stuff because he is used to (He was raised by an SJ and a NT)
    But if he told me he is tired of it and wants to go live on a wooden house upon a tree, and make comics for our living, and draw food when we don´t have anything to eat I would gladly do it.

    4 months ago I was living with an SJ family. I had to clean everyday. do all the stuff they needed to get done. Commit to stupid family visits because they need to fake they are all in good relationships, go to dinners anybody really cared about, eat too much food that tasted all the same, and feel guilty if I spent too many hours drawing. My life was shitty.

    Now I am living with my INFP grandfather and my INTP uncle. We are all anarcho-artists. We earn money from selling cactus, winning art competitions, selling sculptures and katanas. We are poor but creative and cool as hell. Our house is a mess but is really colorful and simple, and we have a lot of weird stuff, and we have some really deliscious meals that we actually enjoy. We don´t need SJs because we just don´t do the boring stuff. We need them indirectly to do boring stuff somewhere else we can´t see :P
    But an ESTJ living with us would be going crazy.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies

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  4. #44
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Yaru I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

    Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Yaru I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

    Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.
    Thank you.
    Well. Actually the problem is that even if now I understand why I feel like this, and I can try to understand them more, the SJs that don't know anything about MBTI or Socionics, don't understand this difference and think that I am kind of weird.
    Like, I´m sure your husband knows about all this kind of stuff, and maybe you discuss about it and it helps you understand each other better.
    But how do I explain to people that think I´m just weird all this stuff?

    Like my mother. She would never understand any of this. She is really closed minded and will just start saying I´m all theory and no experience, and will keep thinking we can´t go along.
    Now that I am thinking about it. Maybe I feel this hatred towards SJs because they always rejected me in the first place.

    There are things I could do to please SJs, these are¨:

    Find a stable job they like.
    Start cleaning the house daily.
    Learn to cook well.
    Play a sport.
    Socialize.

    And these are things that will either be too hard and unnatural to me, or will just depress me and make me feel unhappy.
    If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  6. #46
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Yaru I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

    Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.
    Yes!

    To be honest, when I was even a year into researching personality theory I projected a lot of negative qualities onto ESTJs as well. I remember there was some dating thread and I said yes to ISTJ and no to ESTJ. I considered them reactive, loud-mouthed, short-tempted, oppressive, and so on. And then when I realized that even though I was preaching that we should all give types a chance, I wasn't actually giving the ESTJ type itself the benefit of the doubt. And when I came back to this forum with a clearer and more open mind I met people like @EJCC who proved me differently. I also realized one of my best friends was ESTJ - one of the most energetic, personable, warm, and inviting people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

    Frankly, I just refrain from typing people until I know them really well. I used to do this "searching" where I would look for any opportunity in personal interaction to tie something to type or cognitive function. It really stemmed from a love of analyzing and reading people, but it was also very confining. And I was actually able to recognize my own bias against S types and for N types after recognizing that my impression of their type swayed back and forth between the two as I got negative and positive impressions of them (I'm only bringing this up because those girls who were judgmental to you could very well be ENxP or a variety of other types as well). I took a short break from the forum again and now type doesn't really even occupy my mind that often when I'm hanging out with people - I'm surprised how easy it was to break that habit. I recently made friends with this girl and we bonded so fast that we became best friends like "that" and honestly I haven't really even seriously considered her type yet. I find that one of the joys of getting to know someone is figuring out what types of qualities they have as you get to know them more and more rather than trying to figure out their type from the beginning.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so

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  7. #47
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    Thank you.
    Well. Actually the problem is that even if now I understand why I feel like this, and I can try to understand them more, the SJs that don't know anything about MBTI or Socionics, don't understand this difference and think that I am kind of weird.
    Like, I´m sure your husband knows about all this kind of stuff, and maybe you discuss about it and it helps you understand each other better.
    But how do I explain to people that think I´m just weird all this stuff?

    Like my mother. She would never understand any of this. She is really closed minded and will just start saying I´m all theory and no experience, and will keep thinking we can´t go along.
    Now that I am thinking about it. Maybe I feel this hatred towards SJs because they always rejected me in the first place.

    There are things I could do to please SJs, these are¨:

    Find a stable job they like.
    Start cleaning the house daily.
    Learn to cook well.
    Play a sport.
    Socialize.

    And these are things that will either be too hard and unnatural to me, or will just depress me and make me feel unhappy.
    If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?
    Two things:

    1) The more you learn about typology, the more you learn that its best use is as a language with which we can describe ourselves, others, and our similarities and differences. So really all you need to do in order to have these conversations with the STJs in your life is find synonyms. It will help to have those conversations calmly and rationally, without seeming like you're blaming them for anything -- your relationships with others are always a two-way street.

    2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong. So when you say "it's because I'm an INFP that I act this way", or however you translate that to the vernacular (see my first point), the STJs in your life might react with "no, actually, that has nothing to do with type, and everything to do with being a responsible adult"*. And both of you would be right, to an extent. On their side, it IS important for you to live safely, healthily, and responsibly, and being an INFP is a terrible excuse for living like a man-child (or whatever the female equivalent is). On your side, the "get it done" function (Te) will always be your last, so even if you get really good at accomplishing Te tasks efficiently (like @PeaceBaby ), it'll still be unpleasant and "wrong" in some ways.

    *If I could summarize the things that your STJ relatives want you to do, it would be this: "Live safely, healthily, and responsibly." Each of those list items is a manifestation of that priority. Edit: If and when your STJ relatives come around, it'll be when they realize that that principle is more important than each of its parts -- so as long as you live safely, healthily, and responsibly overall, it doesn't matter if you leave out individual items that they would consider safe/healthy/responsible.
    Last edited by EJCC; 12-05-2014 at 10:50 AM. Reason: elaboration
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  8. #48
    Senior Member robowolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaru View Post
    4 months ago I was living with an SJ family. I had to clean everyday. do all the stuff they needed to get done. Commit to stupid family visits because they need to fake they are all in good relationships, go to dinners anybody really cared about, eat too much food that tasted all the same, and feel guilty if I spent too many hours drawing. My life was shitty.
    I feel you.
    Not all SJs are like that though. Most of them at some point acknowledge that not everyone is like them and not everyone wants the same things they want (clean house, table manners, rules and structure...).
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Two things:

    1) The more you learn about typology, the more you learn that its best use is as a language with which we can describe ourselves, others, and our similarities and differences. So really all you need to do in order to have these conversations with the STJs in your life is find synonyms. It will help to have those conversations calmly and rationally, without seeming like you're blaming them for anything -- your relationships with others are always a two-way street.

    2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong. So when you say "it's because I'm an INFP that I act this way", or however you translate that to the vernacular (see my first point), the STJs in your life might react with "no, actually, that has nothing to do with type, and everything to do with being a responsible adult"*. And both of you would be right, to an extent. On their side, it IS important for you to live safely, healthily, and responsibly, and being an INFP is a terrible excuse for living like a man-child (or whatever the female equivalent is). On your side, the "get it done" function (Te) will always be your last, so even if you get really good at accomplishing Te tasks efficiently (like @PeaceBaby ), it'll still be unpleasant and "wrong" in some ways.

    *If I could summarize the things that your STJ relatives want you to do, it would be this: "Live safely, healthily, and responsibly." Each of those list items is a manifestation of that priority.
    I can understand what you are saying.
    It isn't an excuse. It may seem like it.
    Isn't living irresponsibly, is just living differently.
    I could have a stable work, a wealthy and healthy life, but be incredibly unhappy.
    I´d rather have white bread and be happy than have wealth through vexation.
    I´d rather live a risky life and try to do what most people never dare to do rather than being safe in your stable life, which is the equivalent of being unsafe from yourself, because that leads to disappointment, depression and unhappiness.
    Isn´t an excuse, is just knowing what is healthy for oneself.
    Why do I procastinate? Because I´d rather procastinate and achieve knowledge and values from the time I spent procastinating, than doing everything in time and right in the moment and just gain and amount of stress that I just can´t handle.
    I did live the way they wanted me to, and that is why I am now so emotionally unstable.
    Our brain and body are wise, one should just learn to read the signs and get the lifestyle that it more suitable for them.

    Safety, Health, and Responsibility are relative.
    You are never safe enough, never healthy enough, never responsible enough.
    Being too safe would make you unable to face danger.
    Being too healthy will make you unable to deal with illnesses.
    Being too responsible will make you carry the weight of the world through commitments and stuff you don't really need in your life.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  10. #50
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong.
    Haha maybe it's the shared Ne/Te, but I've caught myself saying this EXACT same thing about some people. Recently my friends and I had an intervention with my friend and she brought up the "it's just the way I am" thing. And I was like, "sure it is, but recognizing that is only half of it - the other half is realizing how to work around it if it's causing a problem." The whole individualist excuse bothers the hell out of me.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so

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