INFP, ESTJ Duality??

[Pionart]

ISTJs are awesome.

That is all.

 

[robowolf]

Yesterday two ESxx girls came visit my family, they were 14 and 16. They didn't know me and after 2 minutes started asking me why was I weird, if I had some form of selective mutism, and if I was younger than they are.
How can it be possible to me to feel embarrassed and inferior in presence of some young teen girls? It's just dumb. And with males is like a thousand times worse.

Teen girls can be very shallow and judgemental (not all of them of course), especially if they're in groups of 2+, and if they're ESxx they won't even bother trying to hide it.

To stay on topic: probably an ESTJ-INFP relationship would be draining at first, but once both partners learn to get along without pushing each other's buttons it should become easier. I guess at that point the ESTJ would help the INFP develop their Te, while the INFP would help the ESTJ develop their Fi.

(besides, who wouldn't want an ESJ in their life to take care of all the social and boring stuff?)

 

[Yaru]

Teen girls can be very shallow and judgemental (not all of them of course), especially if they're in groups of 2+, and if they're ESxx they won't even bother trying to hide it.

To stay on topic: probably an ESTJ-INFP relationship would be draining at first, but once both partners learn to get along without pushing each other's buttons it should become easier. I guess at that point the ESTJ would help the INFP develop their Te, while the INFP would help the ESTJ develop their Fi.

(besides, who wouldn't want an ESJ in their life to take care of all the social and boring stuff?)

Yeah those kids were really arrogant. And they thought they were cool because they smoke and drink at their young age. I may understand that they could have problems with their families etc, but I did too when I was their age, and I NEVER ever thought of doing stuff like that because I knew what was right and what was wrong. I didn't need people to tell me anything.

A lot of types can help INFPs to develop their Te, and they don't have to necessarily be your partners. That´s my whole point. My relationship with my ISTJ sister works like that, and it´s awesome because when I get tired of her world I can just do my stuff and go see the people I want to have more in-depth conversations with and I am not committed with her in anyway. So that's a relationship I don't mind.

My INTP partner takes care of all the boring stuff because he is used to (He was raised by an SJ and a NT)
But if he told me he is tired of it and wants to go live on a wooden house upon a tree, and make comics for our living, and draw food when we don´t have anything to eat I would gladly do it.

4 months ago I was living with an SJ family. I had to clean everyday. do all the stuff they needed to get done. Commit to stupid family visits because they need to fake they are all in good relationships, go to dinners anybody really cared about, eat too much food that tasted all the same, and feel guilty if I spent too many hours drawing. My life was shitty.

Now I am living with my INFP grandfather and my INTP uncle. We are all anarcho-artists. We earn money from selling cactus, winning art competitions, selling sculptures and katanas. We are poor but creative and cool as hell. Our house is a mess but is really colorful and simple, and we have a lot of weird stuff, and we have some really deliscious meals that we actually enjoy. We don´t need SJs because we just don´t do the boring stuff. We need them indirectly to do boring stuff somewhere else we can´t see
But an ESTJ living with us would be going crazy.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.

 

[Yaru]

[MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.

Thank you.
Well. Actually the problem is that even if now I understand why I feel like this, and I can try to understand them more, the SJs that don't know anything about MBTI or Socionics, don't understand this difference and think that I am kind of weird.
Like, I´m sure your husband knows about all this kind of stuff, and maybe you discuss about it and it helps you understand each other better.
But how do I explain to people that think I´m just weird all this stuff?

Like my mother. She would never understand any of this. She is really closed minded and will just start saying I´m all theory and no experience, and will keep thinking we can´t go along.
Now that I am thinking about it. Maybe I feel this hatred towards SJs because they always rejected me in the first place.

There are things I could do to please SJs, these are¨:

Find a stable job they like.
Start cleaning the house daily.
Learn to cook well.
Play a sport.
Socialize.

And these are things that will either be too hard and unnatural to me, or will just depress me and make me feel unhappy.
If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?

 

[HongDou]

[MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] I'm not sure it's clear to you that you don't need an ESTJ as a partner, no one is saying this in thread. You can have a successful relationship with any type pairing if you love each other and work at communication. We're all happy that you're happy with your INTP. What folks are pointing out is just that it's normal for you right now, and especially at your age, to feel the way you do about STJs. Don't worry about it one bit. Just realize the source of why you feel as you do, and carrying an awareness of that may help you as you continue to live and grow.

Best wishes to you! I enjoy your candor on the forum.

Yes!

To be honest, when I was even a year into researching personality theory I projected a lot of negative qualities onto ESTJs as well. I remember there was some dating thread and I said yes to ISTJ and no to ESTJ. I considered them reactive, loud-mouthed, short-tempted, oppressive, and so on. And then when I realized that even though I was preaching that we should all give types a chance, I wasn't actually giving the ESTJ type itself the benefit of the doubt. And when I came back to this forum with a clearer and more open mind I met people like [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] who proved me differently. I also realized one of my best friends was ESTJ - one of the most energetic, personable, warm, and inviting people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

Frankly, I just refrain from typing people until I know them really well. I used to do this "searching" where I would look for any opportunity in personal interaction to tie something to type or cognitive function. It really stemmed from a love of analyzing and reading people, but it was also very confining. And I was actually able to recognize my own bias against S types and for N types after recognizing that my impression of their type swayed back and forth between the two as I got negative and positive impressions of them (I'm only bringing this up because those girls who were judgmental to you could very well be ENxP or a variety of other types as well). I took a short break from the forum again and now type doesn't really even occupy my mind that often when I'm hanging out with people - I'm surprised how easy it was to break that habit. I recently made friends with this girl and we bonded so fast that we became best friends like "that" and honestly I haven't really even seriously considered her type yet. I find that one of the joys of getting to know someone is figuring out what types of qualities they have as you get to know them more and more rather than trying to figure out their type from the beginning.

 

[EJCC]

Thank you.
Well. Actually the problem is that even if now I understand why I feel like this, and I can try to understand them more, the SJs that don't know anything about MBTI or Socionics, don't understand this difference and think that I am kind of weird.
Like, I´m sure your husband knows about all this kind of stuff, and maybe you discuss about it and it helps you understand each other better.
But how do I explain to people that think I´m just weird all this stuff?

Like my mother. She would never understand any of this. She is really closed minded and will just start saying I´m all theory and no experience, and will keep thinking we can´t go along.
Now that I am thinking about it. Maybe I feel this hatred towards SJs because they always rejected me in the first place.

There are things I could do to please SJs, these are¨:

Find a stable job they like.
Start cleaning the house daily.
Learn to cook well.
Play a sport.
Socialize.

And these are things that will either be too hard and unnatural to me, or will just depress me and make me feel unhappy.
If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?

Two things:

1) The more you learn about typology, the more you learn that its best use is as a language with which we can describe ourselves, others, and our similarities and differences. So really all you need to do in order to have these conversations with the STJs in your life is find synonyms. It will help to have those conversations calmly and rationally, without seeming like you're blaming them for anything -- your relationships with others are always a two-way street.

2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong. So when you say "it's because I'm an INFP that I act this way", or however you translate that to the vernacular (see my first point), the STJs in your life might react with "no, actually, that has nothing to do with type, and everything to do with being a responsible adult"*. And both of you would be right, to an extent. On their side, it IS important for you to live safely, healthily, and responsibly, and being an INFP is a terrible excuse for living like a man-child (or whatever the female equivalent is). On your side, the "get it done" function (Te) will always be your last, so even if you get really good at accomplishing Te tasks efficiently (like [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] ), it'll still be unpleasant and "wrong" in some ways.

*If I could summarize the things that your STJ relatives want you to do, it would be this: "Live safely, healthily, and responsibly." Each of those list items is a manifestation of that priority. Edit: If and when your STJ relatives come around, it'll be when they realize that that principle is more important than each of its parts -- so as long as you live safely, healthily, and responsibly overall, it doesn't matter if you leave out individual items that they would consider safe/healthy/responsible.

 

[robowolf]

4 months ago I was living with an SJ family. I had to clean everyday. do all the stuff they needed to get done. Commit to stupid family visits because they need to fake they are all in good relationships, go to dinners anybody really cared about, eat too much food that tasted all the same, and feel guilty if I spent too many hours drawing. My life was shitty.

I feel you.
Not all SJs are like that though. Most of them at some point acknowledge that not everyone is like them and not everyone wants the same things they want (clean house, table manners, rules and structure...).

 

[Yaru]

Two things:

1) The more you learn about typology, the more you learn that its best use is as a language with which we can describe ourselves, others, and our similarities and differences. So really all you need to do in order to have these conversations with the STJs in your life is find synonyms. It will help to have those conversations calmly and rationally, without seeming like you're blaming them for anything -- your relationships with others are always a two-way street.

2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong. So when you say "it's because I'm an INFP that I act this way", or however you translate that to the vernacular (see my first point), the STJs in your life might react with "no, actually, that has nothing to do with type, and everything to do with being a responsible adult"*. And both of you would be right, to an extent. On their side, it IS important for you to live safely, healthily, and responsibly, and being an INFP is a terrible excuse for living like a man-child (or whatever the female equivalent is). On your side, the "get it done" function (Te) will always be your last, so even if you get really good at accomplishing Te tasks efficiently (like [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] ), it'll still be unpleasant and "wrong" in some ways.

*If I could summarize the things that your STJ relatives want you to do, it would be this: "Live safely, healthily, and responsibly." Each of those list items is a manifestation of that priority.

I can understand what you are saying.
It isn't an excuse. It may seem like it.
Isn't living irresponsibly, is just living differently.
I could have a stable work, a wealthy and healthy life, but be incredibly unhappy.
I´d rather have white bread and be happy than have wealth through vexation.
I´d rather live a risky life and try to do what most people never dare to do rather than being safe in your stable life, which is the equivalent of being unsafe from yourself, because that leads to disappointment, depression and unhappiness.
Isn´t an excuse, is just knowing what is healthy for oneself.
Why do I procastinate? Because I´d rather procastinate and achieve knowledge and values from the time I spent procastinating, than doing everything in time and right in the moment and just gain and amount of stress that I just can´t handle.
I did live the way they wanted me to, and that is why I am now so emotionally unstable.
Our brain and body are wise, one should just learn to read the signs and get the lifestyle that it more suitable for them.

Safety, Health, and Responsibility are relative.
You are never safe enough, never healthy enough, never responsible enough.
Being too safe would make you unable to face danger.
Being too healthy will make you unable to deal with illnesses.
Being too responsible will make you carry the weight of the world through commitments and stuff you don't really need in your life.

 

[HongDou]

2) I don't know if other STJs are like this, but I'm personally bothered by the phrase "it's just the way I am". 90% of the time, it seems like an excuse to resist change, which is especially frustrating when you KNOW that they're wrong.

Haha maybe it's the shared Ne/Te, but I've caught myself saying this EXACT same thing about some people. Recently my friends and I had an intervention with my friend and she brought up the "it's just the way I am" thing. And I was like, "sure it is, but recognizing that is only half of it - the other half is realizing how to work around it if it's causing a problem." The whole individualist excuse bothers the hell out of me.

 

[PeaceBaby]

My husband is interested in this to a point, but not really. We have known we are different even before knowing about personality types. He just likes my brand of weird.

If I can accept them without pretending changes from them, how can I be accepted by them without them to pretend changes from me?

I hear you and understand very much where you are coming from. But you do want them to change. You want them to be like you. I know this because I have wanted that too. You want them to be as open, accepting, tolerant and flexible as you perceive yourself to be, and indeed you likely very much embody those qualities. In that, there is found your rigidity. Can you accept that they will never be able to do this as you do? Can you still love and accept them anyway, and thus love and accept yourself? You cannot ask a fish to be a bird. And the time it takes for that level of transformation ... a lifetime, maybe 1000 lifetimes.

Here's another way of looking at things. There are only two ways to change a system: from the inside or the outside. From the inside, you get the benefit of the structure J-types provide, with some annoying collateral concerns to focus on, such as what they expect of you - responsibilities of cleaning, regular employment etc etc. From the outside, you get the benefit of tossing the structure of others, but you will quickly discover you need some kind of structure, and you'll have to make your own structure in order to survive. You can't evade the Te aspect of living. You'll have to learn to deal with it one way or another.

Realize that when an SJ rejects some of your choices, they aren't rejecting you, they are rejecting their inferior functions. Can you try to not take it personally? I know this will likely take you many years, and even now at my age, I'm still not always good at taking such criticisms impersonally. I am and always shall be weird. And you know, it's ok.

 

[Yaru]

My husband is interested in this to a point, but not really. We have known we are different even before knowing about personality types. He just likes my brand of weird.



I hear you and understand very much where you are coming from. But you do want them to change. You want them to be like you. I know this because I have wanted that too. You want them to be as open, accepting, tolerant and flexible as you perceive yourself to be, and indeed you likely very much embody those qualities. In that, there is found your rigidity. Can you accept that they will never be able to do this as you do? Can you still love and accept them anyway, and thus love and accept yourself? You cannot ask a fish to be a bird. And the time it takes for that level of transformation ... a lifetime, maybe 1000 lifetimes.

Here's another way of looking at things. There are only two ways to change a system: from the inside or the outside. From the inside, you get the benefit of the structure J-types provide, with some annoying collateral concerns to focus on, such as what they expect of you - responsibilities of cleaning, regular employment etc etc. From the outside, you get the benefit of tossing the structure of others, but you will quickly discover you need some kind of structure, and you'll have to make your own structure in order to survive. You can't evade the Te aspect of living. You'll have to learn to deal with it one way or another.

Realize that when an SJ rejects some of your choices, they aren't rejecting you, they are rejecting their inferior functions. Can you try to not take it personally? I know this will likely take you many years, and even now at my age, I'm still not always good at taking such criticisms impersonally. I am and always shall be weird. And you know, it's ok.

I do accept them.
I am mostly talking about my mother.
I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.

 

[EJCC]

I can understand what you are saying.
It isn't an excuse. It may seem like it.
Isn't living irresponsibly, is just living differently.
I could have a stable work, a wealthy and healthy life, but be incredibly unhappy.
I´d rather have white bread and be happy than have wealth through vexation.
I´d rather live a risky life and try to do what most people never dare to do rather than being safe in your stable life, which is the equivalent of being unsafe from yourself, because that leads to disappointment, depression and unhappiness.
Isn´t an excuse, is just knowing what is healthy for oneself.
Why do I procastinate? Because I´d rather procastinate and achieve knowledge and values from the time I spent procastinating, than doing everything in time and right in the moment and just gain and amount of stress that I just can´t handle.
I did live the way they wanted me to, and that is why I am now so emotionally unstable.
Our brain and body are wise, one should just learn to read the signs and get the lifestyle that it more suitable for them.

If you re-read my post, you'll see that you don't need to convince me of anything. I was trying to explain where your STJ relatives are coming from, and how you can better communicate with them.

It also sounds like a lot more of this is based on type 4, than INFP. You sound very much like a young and rebellious 4. (Is 6 in your tritype, by the way?) I don't understand 4s all that well, so I'm probably not the right person to talk to about how 4s and SJs can get along better.

This might be redundant, but if you want to get along with your family, you probably won't do so by constantly rebelling against them and everything they stand for. You don't have to either completely embrace their way of life, or reject it entirely. There's middle ground there. But as of right now, it sounds like getting along with them isn't your goal. Or at least, what you're doing isn't terribly conducive to it. Edit: I essentially meant what [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] said, but she said it better.

I do accept them.
I am mostly talking about my mother.
I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.

Ah -- didn't read the entire thread, so didn't see that you're in a bit of a transitory period. Yes, absolutely, do your own thing. Live the way that works for you. But don't reject absolutely everything your parents suggest, on principle. It's not "your way" or "your mother's way". There are gray areas, and finding the best way for you to live will depend on your ability to see those gray areas objectively.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I can sense you'll likely want to step away from this conversation soon [MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] as you may be feeling somewhat frustrated and misunderstood. Just take a little time to think about what I said above. I do hear you, and I empathize with you deeply. I am saying you don't accept them - yes, you accept that they are different, and you love them, but you really don't accept that they are wired the way they are wired. And that is perfectly ok, it's not a criticism of you at all. I'll leave you with that for now, let it cogitate in your mind for a bit. Are things harder for us in this way? Very much yes. Can you still navigate the J waters and be yourself? Yes. But it will not be like flicking a light switch, and you will bump around in the dark from time to time your whole life, probably. (Like everyone else too on some point or other.)

Sending hugs to you, sorry these words are likely not enough to help you feel heard, but I feel you in there.

 

[EJCC]

^ Seconded.

[MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] I'll step out of the thread, too. I honestly can't do anything except speak STJ speak, so my language is probably setting you off. Apologies for that.

(But for the record, PB knows a lot about this and I would trust her expert opinion. )

 

[Jaguar]

I know this is an SJ world and they rule.

Fuck that noise.

 

[uumlau]

I do accept them.
I am mostly talking about my mother.
I've always love her. Even though she abandoned me, I always loved her so much, and I thought it was a good thing to come live with her now that I make my own decisions.
The first days I tried so hard to be the way she wants me to. To try to look for a job, to clean to be careful not to be inappropriate around them... but I just couldn't. I could do it for a while, but after that I started feeling nauseous. And incredibly depressed. I've spent years thinking about what was wrong with me, why is that so hard to me, why can't I be normal, why can't I be like them... and what about me? What about what I really need?

I am really a live and let live kind of person. If you want structure, if you want to clean the house and all the people around you from head to toe, go ahead, I really couldn't care less about what others are doing if they just let me be.
I never asked much. You don't want to clean my personal space or cook to me? Then don't I'm not asking for that. I'm asking to be respected the same way I respect them. Even if I am kind of random and do things they dislike, I don't really mean it. But that's why I'd rather be by myself. I don't really want to be with people anymore. I'd rather do my thing without bothering anybody.
I know this is an SJ world and they rule. And is their lifestyle and their rules.
But sorry.. I just can't do this anymore.

Yeah, no one is saying you have to accept anyone. We're more or less pointing out WHY you find these things annoying, and eventually you'll figure out how to handle them in ways that don't annoy you (as much).

Oh, and w/r to your mother, that's your MOTHER. Everyone has issues at your time of life with parents, no matter how good they were as kids, there is a strong tension and a need to break away. Part of what comes with breaking away is learning that, um, hey, waitaminute ... all these things I'm used to happening on their own will only happen if *I* do them. Crap. (I'm an INTJ, the "Mastermind", and even I went through this. My Dad is INTP and Mom was INFJ. They were "live and let live", too, but they were my parents, so I didn't get to see that much of that side of them until I was much older. That said, I manage money WAY better than either of them ever did ... )

As Mark Twain put it:

When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.

In the modern era, that's probably more like 20 and 30 instead of 14 and 21, but the same principle applies.

Note that I'm not even applying typology here. This is humanity. This is growing up. The main takeaway from this is to know that you'll figure this all out for yourself, on your own time, but until then it's going to be kind of frustrating. You'll eventually have a conversation where you finally gain this understanding, and say to your Mom, "Why didn't you tell me?!" and she'll reply, "I did. Over and over again."

 

[Yaru]

In the modern era, that's probably more like 20 and 30 instead of 14 and 21, but the same principle applies.

Note that I'm not even applying typology here. This is humanity. This is growing up. The main takeaway from this is to know that you'll figure this all out for yourself, on your own time, but until then it's going to be kind of frustrating. You'll eventually have a conversation where you finally gain this understanding, and say to your Mom, "Why didn't you tell me?!" and she'll reply, "I did. Over and over again."

This is an interesting quote. Well. I think I need to point out that my parents are rather young, and they have been quite immature, and I always saw it since I was a kid. And I kind of find lame some of their choices or behaviors.
My mother is incredibly immature. And I can say that that was me the one always telling her what she should be doing... but she never listened to me.
When she was in her middle 20s she left the country with a random leaving me without a mother when I needed one the most.
2 years ago she had the possibility to fix it, but instead she chose to run away with someone else once again.
She wishes me to live a organized and disciplined life because that's what she hears is the right thing to do from the others. He has no personality. She is the personality she has around at the moment. If her man hates me she would hate me.
That's why I said that such theories are difficult to apply in the real life, because one never knows the oddities that could be going on in other people's lives.

^ Seconded.

[MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] I'll step out of the thread, too. I honestly can't do anything except speak STJ speak, so my language is probably setting you off. Apologies for that.

(But for the record, PB knows a lot about this and I would trust her expert opinion. )

No worries, I accept every kind of feed back. I just need some time to absorb all different information, sometimes cognitive dissonance could be hard to deal with, but it is useful to overcome it even if I will still think my way or in a similar way at least.
I don't know actually. I just once took an enneagram test and said 4w5, but I never made any further research.
I have no idea about how 6 are like.
I am rebellious only when I don't see open possibilities. It's like I get claustrophobic. I can accept whatever reality as long as I see different open options.

I can sense you'll likely want to step away from this conversation soon [MENTION=23393]Yaru[/MENTION] as you may be feeling somewhat frustrated and misunderstood. Just take a little time to think about what I said above. I do hear you, and I empathize with you deeply. I am saying you don't accept them - yes, you accept that they are different, and you love them, but you really don't accept that they are wired the way they are wired. And that is perfectly ok, it's not a criticism of you at all. I'll leave you with that for now, let it cogitate in your mind for a bit. Are things harder for us in this way? Very much yes. Can you still navigate the J waters and be yourself? Yes. But it will not be like flicking a light switch, and you will bump around in the dark from time to time your whole life, probably. (Like everyone else too on some point or other.)

Sending hugs to you, sorry these words are likely not enough to help you feel heard, but I feel you in there.

Thank you. I appreciate this.
Yeah it can be tiring because I am not used to debate as much. Debating is a total new thing that my INTP partner introduced to me when we met, and that I accepted because I knew he respected my values, and I started understanding the way he sees debates. He would start a random debate that would sound serious even if it's about a completely illogical theoretical situation, just to train me to stimulate my way of thinking and try different perspectives. He wanted me to find ways to convince him of stuff that isn't necessarily true, just to prove I can make my ideas stand out.
That's because before I was always trying to avoid any kind of conflict.
I was the child that during class debates would just sit around and be quiet, hoping for someone else to express the ideas I had in mind because I don't like fighting with people, I don't like having any kind of troubles, and I never thought anyone could ever listen to my voice anyway. And I am really emotional so I would just start crying. I always cry while arguing about something I believe important. Even if the other person agrees with me.

 

[PeaceBaby]

And I am really emotional so I would just start crying. I always cry while arguing about something I believe important. Even if the other person agrees with me.

Me too. It's ok.

 

[lulabelle]

I am not really familiar with the duality concept, I understand the ''opposite attracts'' but hey, isn't this a bit extreme? I cannot get duality, how can a type so distant from my values and preferences be my dual? Is it not possible to me to think about it. I hate it. I cannot stand controlling types, is something that I just can't.
SJs are the reason I've isolated myself from society, they cant be my duals. They destroyed my self confidence and I can't imagine a future with them.
My grandfather is an INFP and he was in a relationship with an ESTJ, she ruined his life, she didn't let him be the beautiful person he is, she is a good person and I care about her, but her presence just drains me. The same goes for my ESTJ sister and step-mother. And all the SJs out I've meet out there but my ISTJ sister. She's the only one I can save.

I am sorry if this sounds like a venting post, I just can't understand this theory much. It would be nice if someone could explain it. Even if I won't like it probably.

Am I mistyped? I don't know.
How do other INFPs feel about this? Do you feel comfortable with ESTJs?
Have you been in a relationship with an ESTJ?

I don't hate ESTJs, I think they could be good people, but they are so not for me..

I feel ya. I generally can understand where ESTJs come from, but I can't possibly imagine dating one... I've been friends with one and acquaintances with a few and at a certain point I get bored... I do think that certain INFP enneagram do better with ESTJs and others; I've never heard of an INFP4w5-ESTJ romantic pairing