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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post

    Perhaps, "conscious/unconscious" can describe both the process of perceiving itself, and the orientation, so that:
    Se: conscious perception of the conscious world
    Si: conscious perception of the unconscious world
    Ne: unconscious perception of the conscious world
    Ni: unconscious perception of the unconscious world
    Haha, oh god, you are trying to make those magical/undefined words more solid by mixing them around some more?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    By "negative", I simply means "false"(incorrect) or "bad"(disliked). The extraverted judgments determine false and bad, only it's the external environment that sets the standard. If we say 2+2=5 is "false", then it's an agreed upon (e) standard of impersonal truth (T) making a "negative" judgment.
    I really don't know what this "avoiding/pursuing" concept is. It sounds more like dominant orientation (whether the person is "introverted" or "extraverted": I or E, which is set by the orientation of the dominant function; but then often leads into those familiar social traits). Seeing how you use the terms in the Asperger's thread ("more 'extroverted' when discussion their interests", etc), we really need to make the distinction between people being introverted or extroverted, and functions being introverted or extraverted. For the latter; it's only the standard they use to engage their process. It's not about about avoiding or pursuing (at least, not in themselves), though they may shape that stuff when dominant in the ego.
    The words introversion and extraversion were introduced by Jung, he defined them. (Although popular culture tries to redefine them.)
    He defined them roughly like this:
    introversion moves away from the object, it avoids something
    extraversion goes to the object, it pursues something
    Jung's translators (to English) didn't use the words avoid/pursue, but the translators (to English) used move-away/go-to. But it means the same. Its not about the exact words/label but what core concept in our brain they stand for. Words/labels are just a way to dig up those core concepts in our brain.

    If you want the exact descriptions, of the above (and all the 8 functions), you can read his book Psychological Types in the English translation. Just Chapter X (Roman number 10) will do, plus 1 following chapter with definitions, I think it was chapter 12 or 13 if i remember it well. You can probably find it online.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    I usually only talk about functions, not about people.

    And when you say people, you probably mean MBTI type of a person? The E/I of people's MBTI type is simply what their first function is, as regards to introverted/extraverted. I don't see the confusion in that here.
    OK; I made a mistake. I thought you were the one who said "Aspies are actually usually extroverted when you talk about what they are interested in", and that I put that together with your "avoiding/pursuing", but it was someone else who had said that.

    In any case, yes, people are introverted or extraverted based on their dominant function, though regardless of which function it is, it still leads to some common general "social" traits (which we could summarize as "expressive" vs "reserved"), which is why the I/E factor became apart of the Interaction styles. So what I was saying, was that "avoiding/pursuing" sounds like it might be more part of a person's Interaction Style, than a quality of a function in itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    The words introversion and extraversion were introduced by Jung, he defined them. (Although popular culture tries to redefine them.)
    He defined them roughly like this:
    introversion moves away from the object, it avoids something
    extraversion goes to the object, it pursues something
    Jung's translators (to English) didn't use the words avoid/pursue, but the translators (to English) used move-away/go-to. But it means the same. Its not about the exact words/label but what core concept in our brain they stand for. Words/labels are just a way to dig up those core concepts in our brain.
    Yes, it's easy to lose the meanings in the translations.

    The "-version" suffix itself means "turning" [i.e. toward]. I'm not sure it's so much about "avoiding" as opposed to "pursuing". I guess pursue would fit, but what's not pursued will become "suppressed", and you can consider that "avoided", but I don't think it's quite as active as that, like it's [consciously] on an equal footing with "pursuing" what's preferred; at least that's the impression I get seeing the terms used like that; especially in the context you used them, of "profit"/losses". I don't think those have anything to do with functions, directly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yes, it's easy to lose the meanings in the translations.

    The "-version" suffix itself means "turning" [i.e. toward]. I'm not sure it's so much about "avoiding" as opposed to "pursuing". I guess pursue would fit, but what's not pursued will become "suppressed", and you can consider that "avoided", but I don't think it's quite as active as that, like it's [consciously] on an equal footing with "pursuing" what's preferred; at least that's the impression I get seeing the terms used like that; especially in the context you used them, of "profit"/losses". I don't think those have anything to do with functions, directly.
    Thanks for the -version suffix explanation, this is really great that you found that, I didn't even know that. I will remember.

    Suppressing is a form of avoiding as well. Fi suppresses bad feeling / Fi avoids bad feeling, its the same. Ti suppresses bad logic / Ti avoids bad logic, its the same. I choose avoiding over suppressing because its more general. Like pursue pleasure, avoid pain. You don't say suppress pain, you could, but it would be more specific than avoid pain.
    There are many other even weirder words for pursue/avoid such as hunt/flee. Its all the same in my eyes.

    Loss is something you avoid, profit is something you pursue.

    What is blocking you in accepting profit/loss? Your association with money?
    What do you think profit/loss stands for if you disregard money/currency and look at it abstractly? Or are you unable to uncouple it from money?

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    I just don't think profit/loss corresponds with the attitudes in such a hard, definite way. Fe and Te will avoid bad feelings or logic as well, and Fi and Ti will pursue good feelings and logic. The only difference is the standard that "good" (or "true", etc) is based on. It's not (necessarily) the direction of our action. (Though when dominant, it may shape that).
    I think there's a misunderstanding of Jung's "turning", in a literal, behavioral fashion. But what you "turn" to is simply the internal or external standard good or true is based on, and we naturally will pursue good and true, and avoid what we deem bad or false.
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  7. #17
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    Yes, of course typing is not about literal things, its all abstract to the highest degree.

    The fun part is "the universal law of our physical reality" that if you pursue something, you automatically avoid something else. Or if you avoid something you automatically pursue something else. They are always coupled, this is unavoidable, it is the shadow effect.

    So if you see something in real life, it is always avoiding something and pursuing something-else at the same time (if you look well, from all perspectives). It is impossible to do a one-sided action, in physical reality.

    Now the question is, about that "conscious actor" you are observing pursuing&avoiding in pshyical reality at the same time: what was his original intent? to pursue object1? or to avoid object2? (Even though his act shows both at the same time)

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    And I would still say that both introverted and extraverted attitudes primarily pursue their respective realms (and of course avoid the other one).
    So you cannot really say (Strictly) "Xe=pursue; Xi=avoid". Unless you set the "object" (external) as the universal reference point, but there is nothing that favors such a slant.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    And I would still say that both introverted and extraverted attitudes primarily pursue their respective realms (and of course avoid the other one).
    So you cannot really say (Strictly) "Xe=pursue; Xi=avoid". Unless you set the "object" (external) as the universal reference point, but there is nothing that favors such a slant.
    Yes, the object is the universal reference point for pursue/avoid. (experienced from the point of view of the subject)

    Optionally you can make the subject the reference point, and then we just reverse avoid/pursue for the same effect. So, yes, you can call them all pursuing if you switch the introverted ones to the subject, but keep the extraverted ones to the object. (They are all perfect opposites so by definition they would mean the same if you switch them around obviously.)

    So why "object=universal reference point" ? and not "subject = universal reference point"?
    Both could work, its just a matter of preference...
    But I think "object=universal reference point" is good because:
    1) it will be experienced like pursue/avoid for the subject itself. And when we type, we type from the viewpoint of the subject itself (looking at / deciding about the object), not from the viewpoint of the object he confronts.
    2 You can't pursue the subject / go towards the subject (e.g. introverted, retracting/withdrawing deeper within the subject doesn't make sense) if you are already the subject, you can only avoid the object. So if somebody says a subject is withdrawing/retracting/hiding deep within himself (e.g. pursuing himself in your words), thats just a figure of speech, because taken literally : "where can he actually go? he is already there!". He can actually only avoid the object (whatever his coping strategy is in the end, even if its just closing his eyes).

    So, it makes basic sense right?
    Last edited by Researcher; 01-11-2015 at 09:25 AM.

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    Still been trying to come up with something elemental for S/N as clear and concise as “true/false” and “good/bad” for T/F.

    I think I’ll go with “perception of physical items” (with an alternate of “itemization” or “itemized data”) and “perception of mental constructs” (with an alternate of “larger contexts” or “[nonphysical] patterns”).

    That really seems to sum up what S and N are about. Like S’s “details” and what I was trying to cover with “at hand”; and N’s “big picture” or “stories” that “fill in” experience.

    “Items” would simply represent the sensory “details” S’s focus on. It’s another way of saying “detail”, without using that term, often used in cheap quiz questions.

    For N; “construct” means (Wikipedia):
    an ideal object, where the existence of the thing may be said to depend upon a subject’s mind. This, as opposed to a real object, where existence does not seem to depend on the existence of a mind.
    In a scientific theory, particularly within psychology, a hypothetical construct is an explanatory variable which is not directly observable. For example, the concepts of intelligence and motivation are used to explain phenomena in psychology, but neither is directly observable.

    Concepts that are considered constructs by this definition include that which is designated by the symbol “3” or the word “liberty”. Scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g. evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs.
    Simple examples of real objects (that are not constructs) include lawyers, silver fish and undershirts.

    Other examples of constructs:
    In Biology: Genes, evolution, illness, taxonomy, immunity
    In Physics/Astrophysics: Black holes, the Big Bang, Dark Matter, String Theory, molecular physics or atoms, gravity, center of mass. In Psychology: Intelligence or knowledge, emotions, personality, moods. Theories and Hypotheses.
    Here are some of the basic concepts redone:
    Se: physical items as they are encountered, externally
    Si: physical items compared with ones stored internally in memory
    Ne: mental constructs interconnected in some some larger [external] arrangement
    Ni: mental constructs filtered through internal impressions

    How functions are differentiated from each other

    S: what’s physically itemized [from internal or external source] is used to make mental constructs (n)
    N: what’s mentally constructed (larger patterns) [filtered internally or connected externally] fills in the world of physical items (s)
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