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Thread: Calculate this.

  1. #11
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    Get out of here, you’re too obvious.
    Like Captain Obvious obvious?

    I'm pretty sure he's an ENTJ, btw

  2. #12
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    These guys are thinking too hard. Ti and Te can co-exist if left to their own domains. Science does this with theory and experiment. A single person can do both theory and experiments. And Ni supplements T by supplying insights and hints for both theory and experiment to work with.

  3. #13
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    and are counter-perspectives. Their respective worldviews ultimately clash and can be sources of power-struggles. Each type that values one over the other believes that the other is using the counter-perspective either misguidedly or manipulatively.

    To demonstrate just exactly how these counter-perspectives clash -

    - Organizational Logic, Constructing Models, Bringing Order, Establishing Hierarchies and Systems to be followed exactly as laid out.
    - Business Logic, Utilitarianism, Cutting Costs, Ensuring Efficiency, Using What Works and Discarding What Doesn't.

    An example: There are two administrators to an organized system, an LSI () and an LIE ().

    The LSI, having his hidden agenda fueled by the utter organization of the system he is enforcing (the system is a cause for him, he must enforce it), is hell-bent on following procedure to a T, as without logical order () there is physical chaos and nothing would ever get done properly. Thus, the LSI is very strict with the application of the rules applied to the system, and acts as a physical operative of the system.

    The LIE, embodying the counter-perspective of , always sees what could be made more efficient, what works and what doesn't work. As he observes the system the LSI is enforcing, he notices changes that could be made to remove some obsolete or useless rules that don't measure up to realistic standards, and then sees how current methods could be improved to become more efficient, and thus promptly informs the LSI of these possible changes.

    The LSI feels threatened by the LIE's ideas of change, as they restructure the organization of what already exists and what is already working, what he has been enforcing already, and feels that the LIE is simply wanting to use the system to his own gains, not caring for the logical purity of the system itself. When the LSI denies the LIE's ideas of change, the LIE believes that the LSI is acting foolishly, why follow the system the way it is when there may be easier routes to doing things even though it lessens the logical purity of the system?

    This is Structural Logic vs Business Logic . Embodying both would be embodying two different philosophies that openly contradict each other.
    Your argument is a person can't use a wrench and a hammer at the same time and get the job done. But that doesn't mean a person can't use a wrench and a hammer at different times to get different jobs done.

    And socionics recognizes that types like LII that have strong Ti also have strong Te. LII simply prefers to use Ti, but they have and use Te when it's the right tool for the job.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    Your argument is a person can't use a wrench and a hammer at the same time and get the job done. But that doesn't mean a person can't use a wrench and a hammer at different times to get different jobs done.

    And socionics recognizes that types like LII that have strong Ti also have strong Te. LII simply prefers to use Ti, but they have and use Te when it's the right tool for the job.
    Oversimplification (get that out of here). You can do both actions, but the ideologies of doing both actions are contrary to each other. You can say you are both a Solipsist and an Objecivist (or Empiricist) and provide arguments for both, but you can't actually philosophically be both at the same time, because their foundations openly conflict.

    The LII values strong and devalues strong . As you've said, LII prefers to use , and thus ideologically aligns with , while the LII doesn't prefer , and thus ideologically dissociates from . is used by the LII as a defense, to fight off people attempting to bring the conversation or the project around to a perspective. It is used for the sole purpose of relaying why the Ego functions are better than it, and that is why the Id Block is often seen in a person as a sort of personal mockery of the elements in that position.

  5. #15
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    .
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    Alright @Alea_iacta_est can you answer my pervious question?
    Ti Te Ni Si Fi Ne Se Fe
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post
    .
    .
    Alright @Alea_iacta_est can you answer my pervious question?
    Ti Te Ni Si Fi Ne Se Fe
    I can help you realize your stacking, if that's what you want, but it'll take some introductory work (I'll try to simplify it). This won't be some on-the-spot description that may or may not fit you, this will be the mechanics of personality theory.

    First, we must understand the perspectives: Ep, Ip, Ij, and Ej

    Irrationality:
    Ep - Features of the Environment
    Ip - Effects of the Environment

    Rationality:
    Ij - Judging the Features of the Environment (Modeling, Schematizing, etc.)
    Ej - Producing Effects and Affecting the Environment Yourself

    Each perspective represents the 4 ways your attention can be directed to the world.

    You can either focus your attention on:

    The Statics of the World (The Features)
    The Organization of the World (The Understanding/Categorization/Modelling of Features)
    The Dynamics of the World (The Effects)
    The Malleability of the World (Producing Effects and Making Change Happen)

    Ij is always paired with Ep, even though they are conflicting temperaments, for the simple reason that to categorize and model features, you need to be able to perceive features in the first place.

    Ej is always paired with Ip, even though they are conflicting temperaments, for the simple reason that to actively produce change and affect the environment, you need to be able to perceive what's already happening and the current dynamics of the world.

    Thus, each pair of perspectives is dependent upon each other, they cannot exist without the other's existence.

    So, if you actually want to find your type, the best way would be to narrow down your temperament (which you can possibly do here), and then we can start to worry about the trivialities of information elements (or cognitive functions).
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  7. #17
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I can help you realize your stacking, if that's what you want, but it'll take some introductory work (I'll try to simplify it). This won't be some on-the-spot description that may or may not fit you, this will be the mechanics of personality theory.

    First, we must understand the perspectives: Ep, Ip, Ij, and Ej

    Irrationality:
    Ep - Features of the Environment
    Ip - Effects of the Environment

    Rationality:
    Ij - Judging the Features of the Environment (Modeling, Schematizing, etc.)
    Ej - Producing Effects and Affecting the Environment Yourself

    Each perspective represents the 4 ways your attention can be directed to the world.

    You can either focus your attention on:

    The Statics of the World (The Features)
    The Organization of the World (The Understanding/Categorization/Modelling of Features)
    The Dynamics of the World (The Effects)
    The Malleability of the World (Producing Effects and Making Change Happen)

    Ij is always paired with Ep, even though they are conflicting temperaments, for the simple reason that to categorize and model features, you need to be able to perceive features in the first place.

    Ej is always paired with Ip, even though they are conflicting temperaments, for the simple reason that to actively produce change and affect the environment, you need to be able to perceive what's already happening and the current dynamics of the world.

    Thus, each pair of perspectives is dependent upon each other, they cannot exist without the other's existence.

    So, if you actually want to find your type, the best way would be to narrow down your temperament (which you can possibly do here), and then we can start to worry about the trivialities of information elements (or cognitive functions).

    And can’t you think of the closest mbti type to match what’ve mentioned above?
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post

    And can’t you think of the closest mbti type to match what’ve mentioned above?
    I could deductively find an MBTI type that would closely match that function pattern, but then I would have to rely on your perception of your own psyche through the wildly diverse and ineffectual function descriptions that people may have relayed to you such as [oversimplified] Te = Science or Ti = Smart.

    However, I will suggest that that pattern may be representative of an ENTJ.

  9. #19
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I could deductively find an MBTI type that would closely match that function pattern, but then I would have to rely on your perception of your own psyche through the wildly diverse and ineffectual function descriptions that people may have relayed to you such as [oversimplified] Te = Science or Ti = Smart.

    However, I will suggest that that pattern may be representative of an ENTJ.

    Alright talk to me about ENTJ s getting mistyped as ENTJs..
    Is it any elated to age.
    I mean, when types choose to improve cognitive functions..?
    As ENJT s and INTJ s difference is ordering in the functions, which means power.
    The question is:
    How can these be even more alike?
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  10. #20
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Oversimplification (get that out of here). You can do both actions, but the ideologies of doing both actions are contrary to each other. You can say you are both a Solipsist and an Objecivist (or Empiricist) and provide arguments for both, but you can't actually philosophically be both at the same time, because their foundations openly conflict.

    The LII values strong and devalues strong . As you've said, LII prefers to use , and thus ideologically aligns with , while the LII doesn't prefer , and thus ideologically dissociates from . is used by the LII as a defense, to fight off people attempting to bring the conversation or the project around to a perspective. It is used for the sole purpose of relaying why the Ego functions are better than it, and that is why the Id Block is often seen in a person as a sort of personal mockery of the elements in that position.
    Yeah, that's what they say in socionics, but in the book of Life, the Universe, and Everything (aka reality), LII uses Te when it makes sense to use Te. In fact, trying to use Ti to do a Te job is like trying to use a wrench where a hammer is needed. So it's not "ideological", it's practical. Just whatever tool fits the job.

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