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  1. #1
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Default Te vs Ti court deposition (video)

    Came across this on PerC. Apparently, this is a re-enactment of a real life court deposition.

    Te user may recognize this conversation from their own experiences.










    It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question.
    I learned how to do that from my INTJ dad. I can answer the question you wanted to ask or I can answer one of the many ways the question can be twisted and contorted to. Depends on whether or not I want to answer the actual question.
    Im out, its been fun
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  3. #3
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I'd posted about that video in my blog back in May- because it really does seem like such a clear example. (I wish there were such Fe/Fi or Ne/Ni examples out there.)

    It's like Ni or Si both have some much bigger task mapped out (the immediate significance can be invisible to Pe)- the 'end' goes way beyond the jump over "photocopier" and it seems like that jump should be easy and fast to Te (I presume). Yet Ti is narrowed in on the expanse of that immediate task (e.g. define photocopier) that's directly being experienced- a fragment of the whole task is taken as a sort of entire task within itself (the immediate significance can be invisible to Je)- and it seems like answering a fragment of that whole incorrectly will ultimately lead down such an incorrect path that it will render the whole endeavor pointless.

    It's kind of like- when Jedomaux (our Je dom/aux protagonist) is driving, s/he doesn't want to make any pit stops until AFTER, until the drive home. [I think this is because with introverted perception, Jedomaux can take for granted that if it's important enough, then s/he will remember (and if s/he forgets every single time, then it probably isn't important)- but can't take for granted that if that 'bigger task' doesn't get completed then s/he will quickly figure something else out (because Jedomaux can't interact mercurially with external environment).] But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).

    I don't remember which philosopher* it was that came up with that paradox about how you can never really 'get' someplace because first you must go halfway- and then between halfway and the end, you must go halfway again- and so on, and so on. It seems to make Pedomaux anxious when they can't establish "right here is halfway"- as if going further is pointless if that can't constantly be established- but the more it happens, the more Jedomaux is all "IF YOU KEEP DOING THAT, WE'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE." It causes something like pure existential chaos for Jedomaux, and it can be very distressing (just as I presume it causes some equivalent distress in Pedomaux to not be able to do that).

    eta: so yeah,


    *Zeno. It was Zeno's paradox. Thanks Seymour.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 11-16-2014 at 10:08 PM.
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    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I posted this in April (#43158), and tagged those who I knew had legal backgrounds, but I didn't even think of it in functional terms.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Came across this on PerC. Apparently, this is a re-enactment of a real life court deposition.

    Te user may recognize this conversation from their own experiences.










    It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question.
    The game playing can go both ways. It would be good if neither party did it.

    The Te game goes like this:
    Are you going to stop digging potholes, yes or no? Give me a straight answer!!!

    This trailer seems to show a whole movie about this game, and how someone has to keep their insides sorted (iow, use Ti) using the typical snarkiness, self amusement, conceptual straightening out we all love about Ti users

    ROSEWATER Trailer (Jon Stewart - 2014) - YouTube

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    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Awesome display of the two functions.

    Don't know whether it would stand in court.
    .

  7. #7
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    I learned how to do that from my INTJ dad. I can answer the question you wanted to ask or I can answer one of the many ways the question can be twisted and contorted to. Depends on whether or not I want to answer the actual question.
    OMG a Ti user actually admitting to this evil shit!

    As frustrating his claims of ignorance are, mostly my dad doesn't do it to dodge the question. And if he does, he's usually, patronizingly teaching me a 'valuable lesson' about something. Usually that involves me saying, "but I assumed..." and him then saying, "No. Never assume".

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    (I wish there were such Fe/Fi or Ne/Ni examples out there.)
    I wish there was too - ones showing the frustrations in each direction (eg. Ti frustrations with Te). I know Fi does a version of the Ti thing of feigning/appearing ignorant of what is readily apparent to Fe. Less nitpicky, though. I definitely identified with the Te user, not the Ti user.

    It's like Ni or Si both have some much bigger task mapped out (the immediate significance can be invisible to Pe)- the 'end' goes way beyond the jump over "photocopier" and it seems like that jump should be easy and fast to Te (I presume). Yet Ti is narrowed in on the expanse of that immediate task (e.g. define photocopier) that's directly being experienced- a fragment of the whole task is taken as a sort of entire task within itself (the immediate significance can be invisible to Je)- and it seems like answering a fragment of that whole incorrectly will ultimately lead down such an incorrect path that it will render the whole endeavor pointless.
    This is very good analysis.

    It's kind of like- when Jedomaux (our Je dom/aux protagonist) is driving, s/he doesn't want to make any pit stops until AFTER, until the drive home. [I think this is because with introverted perception, Jedomaux can take for granted that if it's important enough, then s/he will remember (and if s/he forgets every single time, then it probably isn't important)- but can't take for granted that if that 'bigger task' doesn't get completed then s/he will quickly figure something else out (because Jedomaux can't interact mercurially with external environment).] But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).
    This is a rather complex and fascinating way of putting things and connecting these ideas. It's a bit like that J vs. P distinction you see in tests: "work before play" vs "play before work".

    There's a lot of stuff to unpack in that (ironic, I know), I don't even know where to start. For one thing, I think it's interesting that you connect the immediacy of Pe to a difficulty with revisiting ideas, and general forgetfulness. This certainly works for me as a great explanation as to why Ps are so forgetful in comparison to Js.

    I feel like this whole idea warrants a thread of it's own. I may start derailing my own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I posted this in April (#43158), and tagged those who I knew had legal backgrounds, but I didn't even think of it in functional terms.
    Apologies. I thought it probably would have been posted before.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I wish there was too - ones showing the frustrations in each direction (eg. Ti frustrations with Te).
    What about Ti frustrations with Te? ROSEWATER Trailer (Jon Stewart - 2014) - YouTube

    Based on a true story in a legal situation. Journalist is accused of being a spy based on false assumptions. Any attempts to refute the assumptions behind the questions is met with brutish abuse.

    They have been consistently playing a scene on the radio that's perfect. Interrogator asks why the journalist was talking with a spy. They have not yet isolated on youtube.

    Edit: sorry, I guess I read too quickly. Multi-tasking too much.

    Edit 2: To clarify, I think the video is a very unfair characterization of Ti. I am trying to provide some balance. The lawyer was clearly coaching the defendant to avoid some sort of law suit. Keep in mind it was an ENFP president that pulled the "definition of is" thing.

    Edit 3: lol. I forgot to actually repost the link.

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  9. #9
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Nice production, if the Te actor does overact a bit.

    The Ti user's questions come off as fearful, which might just be the actor's body language, but that is a misunderstanding I've been known to have of such types when discussing something with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).
    This metaphor reminds me of literally being on road trips to see family at the other end of the country when I was a kid with my parents. One is J and one is P, but the J is an average type nine, so...
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  10. #10
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Edit 2: To clarify, I think the video is a very unfair characterization of Ti. I am trying to provide some balance. The lawyer was clearly coaching the defendant to avoid some sort of law suit. Keep in mind it was an ENFP president that pulled the "definition of is" thing.
    Oh, I think you're right. The witness was probably coached by his lawyer to ask repeatedly for clarification in order to obfuscate and frustrate the arguments of other lawyer. However, I'm not sure it was totally a machiavellian thing. It is a re-enactment is therefore a representation of events, which means it can be hard to ascertain all the dynamics. Like @Nixie the actor playing the witness portrayed him as fearful and a little stupid, but the real life events may have been quite different.

    I see the video as representation of the highly subjective experience of Te. It certainly presents the situation very much in favour of the Te user and him being sensible, reasonable and correct - there is no doubt of this bias. I certainly don't intend it to be used to demonize Ti users as a whole, but rather to draw attention to certain qualities and differences between Te and Ti, and stimulate discussion around that. Sometimes there can be a value in hyperbole because it magnifies aspects of life that otherwise go unnoticed or aren't readily explained. Also, it's funny.

    I would gladly post another video of similar style and form that shows the idiocy of Te to balance the discussion, if I could find one.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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