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Te vs Ti court deposition (video)

Southern Kross

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Came across this on PerC. Apparently, this is a re-enactment of a real life court deposition.

Te user may recognize this conversation from their own experiences. :laugh:









It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question. :doh::BangHead:
 

Poki

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It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question. :doh::BangHead:

I learned how to do that from my INTJ dad. I can answer the question you wanted to ask or I can answer one of the many ways the question can be twisted and contorted to. Depends on whether or not I want to answer the actual question.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I'd posted about that video in my blog back in May- because it really does seem like such a clear example. (I wish there were such Fe/Fi or Ne/Ni examples out there.)

It's like Ni or Si both have some much bigger task mapped out (the immediate significance can be invisible to Pe)- the 'end' goes way beyond the jump over "photocopier" and it seems like that jump should be easy and fast to Te (I presume). Yet Ti is narrowed in on the expanse of that immediate task (e.g. define photocopier) that's directly being experienced- a fragment of the whole task is taken as a sort of entire task within itself (the immediate significance can be invisible to Je)- and it seems like answering a fragment of that whole incorrectly will ultimately lead down such an incorrect path that it will render the whole endeavor pointless.

It's kind of like- when Jedomaux (our Je dom/aux protagonist) is driving, s/he doesn't want to make any pit stops until AFTER, until the drive home. [I think this is because with introverted perception, Jedomaux can take for granted that if it's important enough, then s/he will remember (and if s/he forgets every single time, then it probably isn't important)- but can't take for granted that if that 'bigger task' doesn't get completed then s/he will quickly figure something else out (because Jedomaux can't interact mercurially with external environment).] But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).

I don't remember which philosopher* it was that came up with that paradox about how you can never really 'get' someplace because first you must go halfway- and then between halfway and the end, you must go halfway again- and so on, and so on. It seems to make Pedomaux anxious when they can't establish "right here is halfway"- as if going further is pointless if that can't constantly be established- but the more it happens, the more Jedomaux is all "IF YOU KEEP DOING THAT, WE'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE." It causes something like pure existential chaos for Jedomaux, and it can be very distressing (just as I presume it causes some equivalent distress in Pedomaux to not be able to do that).

eta: so yeah, :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:


*Zeno. It was Zeno's paradox. Thanks Seymour.
 
Last edited:

Vasilisa

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I posted this in April (#43158), and tagged those who I knew had legal backgrounds, but I didn't even think of it in functional terms.
 

ygolo

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Came across this on PerC. Apparently, this is a re-enactment of a real life court deposition.

Te user may recognize this conversation from their own experiences. :laugh:









It's giving me flashbacks to a lot of conversations with my ISTP Dad. You can't get a straight answer because apparently you haven't asked the correct, effing question. :doh::BangHead:

The game playing can go both ways. It would be good if neither party did it.

The Te game goes like this:
Are you going to stop digging potholes, yes or no? Give me a straight answer!!!

This trailer seems to show a whole movie about this game, and how someone has to keep their insides sorted (iow, use Ti) using the typical snarkiness, self amusement, conceptual straightening out we all love about Ti users :)

ROSEWATER Trailer (Jon Stewart - 2014) - YouTube
[video=youtube;1jpAVB1JuMc]ROSEWATER Trailer[/video]
 

Riva

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Awesome display of the two functions.

Don't know whether it would stand in court.
 

Southern Kross

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I learned how to do that from my INTJ dad. I can answer the question you wanted to ask or I can answer one of the many ways the question can be twisted and contorted to. Depends on whether or not I want to answer the actual question.
OMG a Ti user actually admitting to this evil shit! :D

As frustrating his claims of ignorance are, mostly my dad doesn't do it to dodge the question. And if he does, he's usually, patronizingly teaching me a 'valuable lesson' about something. Usually that involves me saying, "but I assumed..." and him then saying, "No. Never assume".

(I wish there were such Fe/Fi or Ne/Ni examples out there.)
I wish there was too - ones showing the frustrations in each direction (eg. Ti frustrations with Te). I know Fi does a version of the Ti thing of feigning/appearing ignorant of what is readily apparent to Fe. Less nitpicky, though. :D I definitely identified with the Te user, not the Ti user.

It's like Ni or Si both have some much bigger task mapped out (the immediate significance can be invisible to Pe)- the 'end' goes way beyond the jump over "photocopier" and it seems like that jump should be easy and fast to Te (I presume). Yet Ti is narrowed in on the expanse of that immediate task (e.g. define photocopier) that's directly being experienced- a fragment of the whole task is taken as a sort of entire task within itself (the immediate significance can be invisible to Je)- and it seems like answering a fragment of that whole incorrectly will ultimately lead down such an incorrect path that it will render the whole endeavor pointless.
This is very good analysis.

It's kind of like- when Jedomaux (our Je dom/aux protagonist) is driving, s/he doesn't want to make any pit stops until AFTER, until the drive home. [I think this is because with introverted perception, Jedomaux can take for granted that if it's important enough, then s/he will remember (and if s/he forgets every single time, then it probably isn't important)- but can't take for granted that if that 'bigger task' doesn't get completed then s/he will quickly figure something else out (because Jedomaux can't interact mercurially with external environment).] But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).
This is a rather complex and fascinating way of putting things and connecting these ideas. It's a bit like that J vs. P distinction you see in tests: "work before play" vs "play before work".

There's a lot of stuff to unpack in that (ironic, I know), I don't even know where to start. :thinking: For one thing, I think it's interesting that you connect the immediacy of Pe to a difficulty with revisiting ideas, and general forgetfulness. This certainly works for me as a great explanation as to why Ps are so forgetful in comparison to Js.

I feel like this whole idea warrants a thread of it's own. I may start derailing my own thread. :D

I posted this in April (#43158), and tagged those who I knew had legal backgrounds, but I didn't even think of it in functional terms.
Apologies. I thought it probably would have been posted before.
 

ygolo

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I wish there was too - ones showing the frustrations in each direction (eg. Ti frustrations with Te).

What about Ti frustrations with Te? ROSEWATER Trailer (Jon Stewart - 2014) - YouTube

Based on a true story in a legal situation. Journalist is accused of being a spy based on false assumptions. Any attempts to refute the assumptions behind the questions is met with brutish abuse.

They have been consistently playing a scene on the radio that's perfect. Interrogator asks why the journalist was talking with a spy. They have not yet isolated on youtube.

Edit: sorry, I guess I read too quickly. Multi-tasking too much.

Edit 2: To clarify, I think the video is a very unfair characterization of Ti. I am trying to provide some balance. The lawyer was clearly coaching the defendant to avoid some sort of law suit. Keep in mind it was an ENFP president that pulled the "definition of is" thing.

Edit 3: lol. I forgot to actually repost the link.
 

Galena

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Nice production, if the Te actor does overact a bit.

The Ti user's questions come off as fearful, which might just be the actor's body language, but that is a misunderstanding I've been known to have of such types when discussing something with them.

But when Pedomaux is driving, s/he wants to make ALL THE pit stops- it seems pointless to stop afterward instead. [I think this is because Pedomaux can take for granted that it's okay if the original reason everyone piled in the car changes with every single pit stop and s/he never makes it to that destination (or even anything close), because s/he can act so mercurially with the external environment that s/he can always quickly figure something out in a pinch- but Pedomaux can't take for granted s/he will remember that pit stop 'on the way home instead' (that s/he will remember the problem and revisit it in their head if/when the almost completed 'bigger task' needs tweaking) because the Pe purview is limited to the immediate moment (just as Je limits Jedomaux's ability to be mercurial within the immediate moment).
This metaphor reminds me of literally being on road trips to see family at the other end of the country when I was a kid with my parents. One is J and one is P, but the J is an average type nine, so...:cry:
 

Southern Kross

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Edit 2: To clarify, I think the video is a very unfair characterization of Ti. I am trying to provide some balance. The lawyer was clearly coaching the defendant to avoid some sort of law suit. Keep in mind it was an ENFP president that pulled the "definition of is" thing.
Oh, I think you're right. The witness was probably coached by his lawyer to ask repeatedly for clarification in order to obfuscate and frustrate the arguments of other lawyer. However, I'm not sure it was totally a machiavellian thing. It is a re-enactment is therefore a representation of events, which means it can be hard to ascertain all the dynamics. Like [MENTION=17945]Nixie[/MENTION] the actor playing the witness portrayed him as fearful and a little stupid, but the real life events may have been quite different.

I see the video as representation of the highly subjective experience of Te. It certainly presents the situation very much in favour of the Te user and him being sensible, reasonable and correct - there is no doubt of this bias. I certainly don't intend it to be used to demonize Ti users as a whole, but rather to draw attention to certain qualities and differences between Te and Ti, and stimulate discussion around that. Sometimes there can be a value in hyperbole because it magnifies aspects of life that otherwise go unnoticed or aren't readily explained. Also, it's funny. :D

I would gladly post another video of similar style and form that shows the idiocy of Te to balance the discussion, if I could find one.
 

Galena

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I see the video as representation of the highly subjective experience of Te. It certainly presents the situation very much in favour of the Te user and him being sensible, reasonable and correct - there is no doubt of this bias.
I didn't find him too appealing, either. You'd hope a lawyer's temper could hold out a little longer, as much as I'd similarly get mad in a non-professional situation. :dry:
 

Southern Kross

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I didn't find him too appealing, either. You'd hope a lawyer's temper could hold out a little longer, as much as I'd similarly get mad in a non-professional situation. :dry:
Yeah, there's certainly that going against him too I guess.

I don't know. Maybe I just identified so much with the frustration that I'm forgiving of his anger. :shrug:
 

Z Buck McFate

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There's a lot of stuff to unpack in that (ironic, I know), I don't even know where to start. :thinking: For one thing, I think it's interesting that you connect the immediacy of Pe to a difficulty with revisiting ideas, and general forgetfulness. This certainly works for me as a great explanation as to why Ps are so forgetful in comparison to Js.

Well I'm sure you guys do revisit ideas- but I imagine it's more like recurring themes that get tweaked/improved every time they surface? It stays on the enthusiastic/optimistic side of things though because it isn't weighed down with experiential data like it is for Js.

I feel like this whole idea warrants a thread of it's own. I may start derailing my own thread. :D

:blush: Ha. Sorry. That whole thing had been brewing in my head, and this video has been helpful to me this year in clarifying the external appearance of Pi/Pe/Ji/Je. So.... saw the video surface -> spewed the tangents I'd been cooking.



Nice production, if the Te actor does overact a bit.

The Ti user's questions come off as fearful, which might just be the actor's body language, but that is a misunderstanding I've been known to have of such types when discussing something with them.
(In the off chance it needs saying) It's the product of comedians trying to make a legal transcript funny, with no idea it would eventually be used to exemplify Te/Ti (so no urgency at all to play the people 'fairly'- but I hear what you're saying, it's worth the reminder that this isn't entirely a fair portrayal).



I think "Mr. Show veterans reenacting legal transcripts" should have its own cable station. (And I think John Ennis- the Te guy- always makes for a super funny "angry guy.")
 

ygolo

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I would gladly post another video of similar style and form that shows the idiocy of Te to balance the discussion, if I could find one.

The flip side of that interaction, I was thinking, was the example in Rosewater that they keep playing on the radio, where an interrogator is accusing the journalist in the movie of being a spy and basing the allegations on Jason Jones (of the Daily Show's) interview of the journalist.

As a Ti user, it can often feel like the Te user is just being a bully or trying to torture you when you are just pointing out simple facts or asking for simple clarification.
 

Galena

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Yeah, there's certainly that going against him too I guess.

I don't know. Maybe I just identified so much with the frustration that I'm forgiving of his anger. :shrug:
In the end, it's a 7-minute comedy piece and as such prompts all actors to shoot for the dramatic moon. :D But I must stop with the meta film critic angle and remember the topic. [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION], pretty much what you said; which I assumed went without saying.

I rather related to both sides.

I've often been the person to ask for detail because I don't like being given a task to do without knowing the specific essentials of the expected outcome - and if there aren't any or they might change at any time :)doh:), I'll just establish some for myself and stick to that plan even if I'm not obligated to. Needless to say, I like doing projects under my own direction when possible.

When I say essential, I mean that there are certain details that, if changed, will necessarily change the outcome of a plan. Those are the ones I strongly prefer to have set in stone before the plan goes into motion. There are also many details that will not change the outcome, or don't have to. The latter, I'm interested in discussing mainly so far as how to handle them in a way that won't change the outcome into something unwanted. To the extent that they won't, they can be a bit more open ended. My patience for spending much time regulating and defining details beforehand that have no power to alter an outcome is limited, and I relate to the Te side of this example in that way. Ironically, that feels like defending ambiguity and spontaneity as long as it's kept out of the way of the real movers of the plan.

All of the above hinges on the questionable assumption that there is a hard line between essential and nonessential considerations in any situation, and it depends on my confidence that I know where it is. It also doesn't include situations, not uncommon, where the act of working every detail is an essential part of the plan - those are fun. Or the other extreme, situations that are hurt by any planning at all.
 

Southern Kross

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Well I'm sure you guys do revisit ideas- but I imagine it's more like recurring themes that get tweaked/improved every time they surface? It stays on the enthusiastic/optimistic side of things though because it isn't weighed down with experiential data like it is for Js.
True, but it is different partly for the reason you give (not entirely sure how yet, though). I was just thinking how your theory suggests something that I have observed (but didn't join the dots on, completely), that Js are inherently more connected to the future and less oriented towards the present, and vice-versa for Ps, with many implications resulting for both. For example it gives Ps more access to raw inspiration, but no real sense of where things are going, to the point where they struggle to structure their lives or mentally perceive time and foresee (basic, obvious) outcomes meaningfully. They're so disconnected from time (and their 'future self') and dependent on inspiration that they feel compelled go with it as it comes in the moment. They are unable to trust that they can find and access the place they are presently in ever again, and even if they do perhaps it will never be with the same clarity (hence the pit stops on the way to the destination). By comparison Js are so much more knowledge driven and have a solid foundation to ground them from which to oversee the entirety of the thought. Being more connected to time stream and their 'future self' also helps them to start things off and then revisit their ideas with clarity.

But seriously, I am derailing now...

:blush: Ha. Sorry. That whole thing had been brewing in my head, and this video has been helpful to me this year in clarifying the external appearance of Pi/Pe/Ji/Je. So.... saw the video surface -> spewed the tangents I'd been cooking.
No, no. I didn't mean that you were derailing. It seemed totally relevant to me. I just thought there were so many ideas and complexities in what you said that I would like to explore myself, and not all of them relate to the current topic. I love it when someone can reframe MBTI or JCF theory in a new light that is revealing and inspires new thought on the subject.

Seriously, start a thread on it and I will unleash my thoughts upon you against your will (if I can remember them). :D
 

Z Buck McFate

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As a Ti user, it can often feel like the Te user is just being a bully or trying to torture you when you are just pointing out simple facts or asking for simple clarification.

Yep. I personally thought the Te guy in the video was an ass- the ass-ery made complete by Ennis's acting/visible anger, but I think even reading the transcript would have made me feel a bit prickly. "When you say photocopy machine, what do you mean?" doesn't seem like such a difficult or ridiculous question to me. All he needed to hear- after asking "what do you mean?"- was a few other words for "photocopier." Without even trying to answer the question, Te guy angrily expresses incredulity that anyone would even need to ask such a thing, and merely repeats the same question many times (even though the Ti guy said he needed clarification). I sorta don't understand how that doesn't look like bullying.
 

ygolo

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Yep. I personally thought the Te guy in the video was an ass- the ass-ery made complete by Ennis's acting/visible anger, but I think even reading the transcript would have made me feel a bit prickly. "When you say photocopy machine, what do you mean?" doesn't seem like such a difficult or ridiculous question to me. All he needed to hear- after asking "what do you mean?"- was a few other words for "photocopier." Without even trying to answer the question, Te guy angrily expresses incredulity that anyone would even need to ask such a thing, and merely repeats the same question many times (even though the Ti guy said he needed clarification). I sorta don't understand how that doesn't look like bullying.

Well, in that case, it was clear game playing. Who doesn't know what a photocopier is? We don't know what the context was, but given the transcript we were given, the supposed "Ti user" was very clearly playing a game.

Perhaps he had reason to, perhaps not. Maybe saying that there was a photocopier in use would have led to consequences, and most of the case was spent with the prosecutor just trying to make the defendant say something like that.
 

SD45T-2

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I would gladly post another video of similar style and form that shows the idiocy of Te to balance the discussion, if I could find one.
There's always Jeremy Clarkson. :D
 
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