Thread: Type and Learning Abstract Concepts

1. Originally Posted by Kephalos
I don't know if this is normal but when I'm dealing with math I think only of symbols and the rules to manipulate them and to derive one from another. So for example, when dealing with problems coming from newton's laws, I think to myself "This ultimately becomes a single second order diff equation or a system of such equations and then the problem is solving the equation".

Now I'm into economics, and my approach there is the same, just solve the maximization problem. Or with simpler problems I just draw the problem and maipulate the different graphs.
what do you think of when you do linear algebra or use matrices to find the maximum and minimum points of curves and what not.

2. Originally Posted by doppelganger
So in the example of Newton's 2nd Law, how would you go about understanding it? Btw, what type are you?
I don't know, but I'm unsure as to how. It just makes sense, maybe because when I first heard it, I made a subconscious connection with things I already knew.

Oh, I'm Ni dominant.

3. I can give you examples of how i remember rules of a reason example of a grammatical rule in spanish i've recently learned. We're doing double pronouns (direct and indirect objects in a sentence) and usually a third person indirect object is le or les but if it has both direct and indirect you can't say le lo or les lo you have to say se lo. And so I related to the fact in south and central america there's a lot of drug shit going on and if you lay low you will probably get killed by guns cuz clearly everyone is a gangsta (not really but in this scenerio they are) but se lo is similar to saying syanara motherfuker than loading the bad guy with bullets. and to continue a conversation you have to stay alive, and by saying se lo you are continuing the conversation but if you say le lo you are getting loaded with ak 47 bullets.

I don't know if that's learning or just remembering. but that's similar to how i remember 90% of concepts and terms and what they do. of course like arrays I imagine them as shelves and each shelf is divided into sections each section starts with 0. and then there a robot (the computer goes down this long corridor and get the teddy bear off that shelf) so I visualize stuff to remember. it's why I often know how to do something but can't tell you exactly what i did.

But i feel if i tried to explain to people how i remember the shit they'd just be dafuq

4. Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief
what do you think of when you do linear algebra or use matrices to find the maximum and minimum points of curves and what not.
Well, I don't know quite what you mean, but I always try to solve it myself in paper, but worst comes to worst I use matlab. in econ what you really care about are the properties of the solution to a problem rather than obtaining and explicit formula for the variables. It's what D. Mccloskey calls A' implies C' theory. Now that I think about it, economic theory makes you a relativist: to get the result you want you tinker with the assumptions. Sorry for ranting but I think my study of econ has shaped my view of mathematics.

5. Originally Posted by Kephalos
Well, I don't know quite what you mean, but I always try to solve it myself in paper, but worst comes to worst I use matlab. in econ what you really care about are the properties of the solution to a problem rather than obtaining and explicit formula for the variables. It's what D. Mccloskey calls A' implies C' theory. Now that I think about it, economic theory makes you a relativist: to get the result you want you tinker with the assumptions. Sorry for ranting but I think my study of econ has shaped my view of mathematics.
fair enough...I just remember in linear algebra, which is not a remedial algebra, but a way of finding critical points on a graph using matrices and even though I had an A I had not idea what i was doing. I just followed the steps and learned how the teacher tests.

So I was curious to see...we used it for determining how to maximize profit when presented with a bundle of products and certain financial constraints. It's all a blur now....gone....in the sands of time.

6. Originally Posted by doppelganger
When you study something, the facts and rules are given to you and understanding is a matter of knowing the facts and learning the rules that govern their relations. Newton's 2nd Law is an example. What "system" would you devise to understand it? How would you understand it? What does "understanding it" mean to you? And I don't understand why organic chemistry would require making "informed assumptions"? "Informed assumptions" about what? Can you give an example of what you mean?
I can say from past experience that Newton's laws were not intuitive to me. They were too "rigid" and rule bound for me to wrap my brain around them easily. I mean, I did learn them of course as I had to take physics in high school and college.

As far as informed assumptions in ochem, I'll do my best to explain (it's difficult to do unless I am there in person). Say you are given a molecule, and you are told to react it with a reagent (chemical) under a particular set of conditions. You've never seen the compounds before, or the reagent. However, the compound contains a functional group (a part) that reacts in particular ways under similar conditions to compounds that aren't the same as the reagent, but are quite similar. Because of this you can assume the functional group is going to assume the same behavior and reactivity under these conditions as seen with classical examples. However, let's say there is a different functional group near by on the molecule that changes the electron density (a very important factor to consider in ochem) to a strong degree. This would result in the reagent reacting different because this change in density leads to a more stable pathway. Knowing all of this information, and all of these "assumptions" we can proceed forward. Molecules will almost always assume the path of least resistance.

7. Calculus first started making sense to me when I was driving over a bridge with those lane dividing dashes and from far away, they look like a slanting line or curve but when you're driving over them, they look flat and straight. That was like, tangible, physical evidence that things look way different really really close than they do in the big picture that they're a part of.

8. Originally Posted by Hard
I can say from past experience that Newton's laws were not intuitive to me. They were too "rigid" and rule bound for me to wrap my brain around them easily. I mean, I did learn them of course as I had to take physics in high school and college.

As far as informed assumptions in ochem, I'll do my best to explain (it's difficult to do unless I am there in person). Say you are given a molecule, and you are told to react it with a reagent (chemical) under a particular set of conditions. You've never seen the compounds before, or the reagent. However, the compound contains a functional group (a part) that reacts in particular ways under similar conditions to compounds that aren't the same as the reagent, but are quite similar. Because of this you can assume the functional group is going to assume the same behavior and reactivity under these conditions as seen with classical examples. However, let's say there is a different functional group near by on the molecule that changes the electron density (a very important factor to consider in ochem) to a strong degree. This would result in the reagent reacting different because this change in density leads to a more stable pathway. Knowing all of this information, and all of these "assumptions" we can proceed forward. Molecules will almost always assume the path of least resistance.
Why do you need to assume this to combine chemicals? Was that part of a quiz? And even if you believe the reaction pathway will be different, how do you know what that difference will be?

I don't quite see the role of Ni here. It seems you know a bunch of facts, like the electron density, and are simply applying the rules of ochem reactions to the reagents with the help of the assumption that chemicals with similar structures will behave in similar ways. If this assumption has worked in the past then it is also another rule and not an act of intuition. In other words, it appears you are using Te, not Ni.

9. Originally Posted by doppelganger
Why do you need to assume this to combine chemicals? Was that part of a quiz? And even if you believe the reaction pathway will be different, how do you know what that difference will be?

I don't quite see the role of Ni here. It seems you know a bunch of facts, like the electron density, and are simply applying the rules of ochem reactions to the reagents with the help of the assumption that chemicals with similar structures will behave in similar ways. If this assumption has worked in the past then it is also another rule and not an act of intuition. In other words, it appears you are using Te, not Ni.
That's just how it works really. I was just giving an example of the process. You don't know; that is exactly what an informed assumption is. Ochem makes a number of people very uncomfortable because it doesn't follow hard logic like math or physics does, and often doesn't have solid iron clad answers. It's much more nebulous, despite being very logical.

*shrug* if you don't see Ni then so be it? How I think comes into play with it, but not everyone will go about the same thought processes that I do when I go through this. It is facts, but it requires a lot of interpretation and application of them, plus a rather deep understanding of what they mean. I warn my students that if they just try and learn facts without understanding them, they'll fail the class; they often do if they go the memorization route.

Science isn't really intuition. We use intuition to act as a starting point a lot of the time, but until it's proven it's nothing more than an idea.

10. K. Hate most chemistry and math, but very good at counting money, biology and anatomy, so by that I mean I hate chemistry and algebra. I do feel things, and sometimes a year later they happen. Years ago mistake this for INFJ but ISFP with TERTIARY Ni tends to have more unexplained, magical, "psychic" phenomenon. Probably explains Wiccan trend, and hippies and Magic Magic cultures. It's like people get the essence of Ni but in an incredibly vague way.

I am good with abstract meaning in literature.

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