User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 12

  1. #1
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,450

    Default Te-dominants (ExTJs) and internal overstimulation

    Inspired by an excerpt from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk, relating to inferior Fi under stress:



    IME this description is one of the best for how Te-doms react to stress.

    This description illustrates a similarity that I've noticed very recently, between how I, as a Te-dom, react to my internal state when under stress, and how Highly Sensitive Persons and others who are easily overstimulated may react to the external world when experiencing "sensory overload".

    Thoughts/experiences? Am I off base?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!
    Likes SD45T-2, GarrotTheThief liked this post

  2. #2
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sp
    Posts
    2,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Thoughts/experiences? Am I off base?
    It mostly rings true for me.

    Unaware of the Extraverted Thinking persons vulnerable altered condition, however, colleagues, family members, and friends may communicate criticism as directly as usual. Even mild negative comments may provoke hurt feelings when the Extraverted Thinking type is in this state. ESTJs and ENTJs report having difficulty acknowledging, even to themselves, but particularly to the person who has helped bring about the situation, that their feelings have been hurt. They may lash out at others instead, as the examples below illustrate. I feel that I am being criticized unfairly, said an ESTJ. I blame others for my own faults and find fault with others over nothing. I become demanding because I am in a panic about possibly missing deadlines. I watch the clock. I think lots of negative thoughts, put myself down, and feel that others dislike and reject me. My self-esteem about my abilities gets lower and lower. Note the illogical progression of his thoughts. I think I'm pretty confident about my abilities as a trainer, said an ENTJ. But when I've worked very hard preparing for a training session and am especially tired out, I am plagued with the thought that the trainees don't like me, that they like my colleagues better, especially if the colleague I'm teaching with is a Feeling type.

    Another ENTJ described feeling like a victim persecuted, unappreciated, and used. I don't see things clearly and I can't seem to think. I take things personally and am hypersensitive. I will say something without thinking, then become defensive and feel threatened.
    I'm not sure I've ever experienced anything quite like this.

    An ESTJ made this observation: I find myself taking a martyr role, alone and unloved, totally unappreciated. Then I shut down. An ENTJ described being particularly sensitive to any signs of being excluded from important roles. When that happens, I feel that my contributions are not being valued. And another ENTJ described feeling isolated or excluded and having a sense that people don't respect me, especially people I respect.
    Totally. I've been there many times.

    In a variation on this theme, some ESTJs and ENTJs describe situations in which they effectively apply their usual action-oriented, logical problem solving. But later (perhaps even years later), if they are in a vulnerable state, they will recall a specific incident and beat themselves up for not being conscious of other peoples feelings. One ESTJ recalled thinking, Why did I say that to Ellen at that party five years ago? How stupid and insensitive of me!
    Some Extraverted Thinking types are painfully aware of the dilemma they face in dealing with relationship issues within a task-oriented setting. Focusing on others feelings inhibits their ability to take effective Thinking action, though it prevents negative feedback from others about their lack of caring concern.
    Occasionally.

    Outbursts of Emotion

    Effective dominant Introverted Feeling types show an economy of emotional expression. They are typically quite selective and discriminating in revealing their deepest and most cherished values and feelings. Extraverted Thinking types in the grip of inferior Introverted Feeling lack control and discrimination when expressing their inner emotional states. However, their fear of having others witness their rejected, irrational selves strongly motivates them to stay in control if at all possible. They especially worry about losing control in public, particularly at work. Avoiding a public display often results in an even stronger outburst of affect at home, directed at family members, since the emotions
    have to be released somewhere. An ENTJ said, I feel lost and out of control. I know I am not myself, but I can't help it. I don't want company or to be touched. I want to be
    left alone and I want to escape. I will get a headache or shoulder ache and feel really tense. I feel like crying but try to hide it. I hide my feelings inside and push them down, and then become angry, depressed, and withdrawn, recalled an ESTJ.
    Yep.

    Both ESTJs and ENTJs report sometimes feeling suddenly tearful for no apparent reason, and crying in private. However, if the worst happens and they lose control, they may explode in public. This may begin as expressions of intense anger about others incompetence but may quickly evolve into tearful recriminations about a lack of appreciation and recognition.
    In recalling one such incident, an ESTJ said, I am normally not an emotional person; at least I don't show my emotions. I am a very steady person externally. My outburst was quite unlike me. One ESTJ said she is more emotional and not calm I'm irritable, can easily snap at people. Another ESTJ woman commented, I get so emotional I can't stand myself.
    Yep.

    Extraverted Thinking types may be on shaky ground in situations that call for expressions of feeling. One ESTJ described her difficulty with intimate relationships this way: I'm normally gregarious and outgoing with people. But if I get into a one-on-one relationship that's significant, especially romantically, I can't express what I feel or what I'm experiencing. Eventually, I blurt out some really exaggerated emotion at exactly the wrong time. I feel childish and silly and don't want to ever do that again.
    I've never really had a romantic relationship, but I think I've been through limerence once, so I know the feeling. Somehow I managed not to do anything too disastrous.

    Fear of Feeling

    Talking about innermost values, feelings, and concerns is quite difficult even for dominant Introverted Feeling types. Jung (1976a) observed that the very fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic ability before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately presented or communicated to the world (p. 388).
    I think that if you could somehow plug Fi into an old Hiwatt it would sound just like David Gilmour.

    Effective dominant Introverted Feeling types accept the nuances of feeling they experience as natural and welcome evidence of their own inner complexity. But feelings and emotions intruding into the consciousness of an Extraverted Thinking type who is in the grip of inferior Introverted Feeling are experienced as so alien and overwhelming that
    they are inexpressible. From a Thinking point of view, the eruption of illogical, uncontrolled, and disorderly feelings is like being at the mercy of strange and overwhelming forces that threaten a persons equilibrium, if not his or her whole existence. As a result, Extraverted Thinking types are rarely able to communicate their distress to others, often maintaining their typical controlled demeanor while fearing that they will lose control of their emotions. In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy.

    To fend off the feared result, initial attempts involve maintaining cool and detached effectiveness and objectivity. Casual observers will not detect the intense inner battle for control. More careful observation, however, may reveal uncharacteristic silence, withdrawal, moodiness, or flat and depressed affect. Men and women of both types typically report becoming uncharacteristically quiet and withdrawn. An ESTJ described feeling a swirling in the pit of my stomach and a desperate attempt to figure out why and to define my reaction logically.

    Because the Extraverted Thinking type has few resources for communicating what is going on inside, potential helpers may remain largely unaware of any distress, even when the person is in serious trouble. The despair, sense of isolation, and feeling of worthlessness may become so extreme that the person may become severely depressed, sometimes requiring medication or hospitalization. Acquaintances and colleagues may be surprised to learn that such an episode has occurred because until final control is lost, the ESTJ or ENTJ may appear fairly normal. I'm calm on the outside, in control, very logical, solve problems, yet it ties me up inside, said an ENTJ. This manifestation of the inferior is an exaggeration of the dominant Introverted Feeling types economy of emotional expression.
    Yep. I generally don't talk about it because 1) talking about it generally doesn't make me feel any better and 2) I can't really come up with the words for it. Pretty much the only thing I can think of to convey the actual feelings themselves (instead of just the situation that's bothering me) it is to describe them in a sort of roundabout way, like the scene in Heat where Pacino and De Niro tell each other about their dreams.
    Last edited by EJCC; 11-04-2014 at 04:30 PM. Reason: double post
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  3. #3
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Inspired by an excerpt from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk, relating to inferior Fi under stress:
    I really want to read that book. I read the descriptions of some types on PC a few months and thought they were pretty amazing and geuinely insightful. The IxFP were so good it actually took a few minutes to actually recognise it within myself. It's that weird feeling of recognising the unconscious drives within myself and the gut punch sensation that goes with it.

    It really interesting how it describes the ways Dominant function and Inferior bleed and converge into one another.

    This description illustrates a similarity that I've noticed very recently, between how I, as a Te-dom, react to my internal state when under stress, and how Highly Sensitive Persons and others who are easily overstimulated may react to the external world when experiencing "sensory overload".

    Thoughts/experiences? Am I off base?
    Yeah that's Fi for you - it has an internalising focus to it and is attuned to unseen forces. I once read this interesting bit about INFPs, which demonstrates this idea well:

    "To others the INFP will often seem like a gentle enigma, often displaying their reactions to their feelings, rather than their feelings."


    ----------------------------------------------

    I found the Te dom description particularly intriguing. It might just be my perception, but it's like there's even more complex, contradictory underbelly to them than other types. The strange underlying vulnerability and doubt is fascinating to me.

    So what kinds of stress does it take for you to act like these behavioural clusters? What kinds of scenarios inspire it? Can you give examples? Is it just a result of accumulation of stress or are there certain things/words/questions/challenges/situations that just cut through like a knife? What pushes your buttons?

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Yep. I generally don't talk about it because 1) talking about it generally doesn't make me feel any better and 2) I can't really come up with the words for it. Pretty much the only thing I can think of to convey the actual feelings themselves (instead of just the situation that's bothering me) it is to describe them in a sort of roundabout way, like the scene in Heat where Pacino and De Niro tell each other about their dreams.
    How does that work in your head though? Is it just that it's hard to describe or is it too emotionally overwhelming to address it directly? Are you even very aware of those feelings or are they more vague and obscure to you?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #4
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sp
    Posts
    2,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So what kinds of stress does it take for you to act like these behavioural clusters? What kinds of scenarios inspire it? Can you give examples? Is it just a result of accumulation of stress or are there certain things/words/questions/challenges/situations that just cut through like a knife? What pushes your buttons?
    Off the top of my head, loneliness, health problems/chronic pain, people asking for my input on something I'm knowledgeable about (which is presumably why they're asking me in the first place) and then not listening to me, especially when they do it again and again.

    How does that work in your head though? Is it just that it's hard to describe or is it too emotionally overwhelming to address it directly?
    Probably some of both.

    Are you even very aware of those feelings or are they more vague and obscure to you?
    I'm usually pretty aware of them, even if I can always pinpoint them precisely.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  5. #5
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    1,683

    Default

    Yeah, pretty much sums up my experience.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  6. #6
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Fear of weakness... Weakness must be redefined.

    Most 8 forget their inner child instead of cherishing him/her.
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

  7. #7
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,450

    Default

    Sorry for the delayed reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I really want to read that book. I read the descriptions of some types on PC a few months and thought they were pretty amazing and geuinely insightful. The IxFP were so good it actually took a few minutes to actually recognise it within myself. It's that weird feeling of recognising the unconscious drives within myself and the gut punch sensation that goes with it.

    It really interesting how it describes the ways Dominant function and Inferior bleed and converge into one another.
    This was my experience reading it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah that's Fi for you - it has an internalising focus to it and is attuned to unseen forces. I once read this interesting bit about INFPs, which demonstrates this idea well:

    "To others the INFP will often seem like a gentle enigma, often displaying their reactions to their feelings, rather than their feelings."
    Huh! I think that applies to ExTJs as well. Usually when I emerge from those inferior-Fi states, it's when I've made sense of it enough that I can summarize it to people in a reasonable, Te-dom way. Which is almost exactly what that quote is describing: talking about feelings without actually showing any feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I found the Te dom description particularly intriguing. It might just be my perception, but it's like there's even more complex, contradictory underbelly to them than other types. The strange underlying vulnerability and doubt is fascinating to me.
    I don't think it's just you. IMO that's how INxx types are so often drawn to them -- you'd think those types would get bored with them, but those still waters run deep. There's a lot under there. (Similar to the now-legendary ENFP/INTJ magnetism)

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So what kinds of stress does it take for you to act like these behavioural clusters? What kinds of scenarios inspire it? Can you give examples? Is it just a result of accumulation of stress or are there certain things/words/questions/challenges/situations that just cut through like a knife? What pushes your buttons?
    That description does a pretty good job describing Te-dom reactions to both mild and extreme stress. Mild stressors, in my case, would probably include
    1) Things not going my way/the way I planned
    2) People being stupid/unreasonable/unreliable
    3) Small failures
    4) People ignoring, mocking/trolling, disrespecting, or deliberately misunderstanding me*

    Whereas causes of extreme stress would include
    1) Major failures
    2) Being unable to control a bad situation
    3) Chaos*
    4) A buildup of lots of little things over time, that don't get acknowledged


    *These enrage me in a matter of seconds. I've yelled at people in those situations and had them react to me like I was crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    It mostly rings true for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Yeah, pretty much sums up my experience.
    The "overstimulation" thing, too?

    Happened to me again today -- trouble turning off the internal "noise", thoughts roaming around every which way, too fast for me to catch them or make sense of them.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #8
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    1,683

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Sorry for the delayed reply!


    This was my experience reading it as well.


    Huh! I think that applies to ExTJs as well. Usually when I emerge from those inferior-Fi states, it's when I've made sense of it enough that I can summarize it to people in a reasonable, Te-dom way. Which is almost exactly what that quote is describing: talking about feelings without actually showing any feeling.


    I don't think it's just you. IMO that's how INxx types are so often drawn to them -- you'd think those types would get bored with them, but those still waters run deep. There's a lot under there. (Similar to the now-legendary ENFP/INTJ magnetism)


    That description does a pretty good job describing Te-dom reactions to both mild and extreme stress. Mild stressors, in my case, would probably include
    1) Things not going my way/the way I planned
    2) People being stupid/unreasonable/unreliable
    3) Small failures
    4) People ignoring, mocking/trolling, disrespecting, or deliberately misunderstanding me*

    Whereas causes of extreme stress would include
    1) Major failures
    2) Being unable to control a bad situation
    3) Chaos*
    4) A buildup of lots of little things over time, that don't get acknowledged


    *These enrage me in a matter of seconds. I've yelled at people in those situations and had them react to me like I was crazy.



    The "overstimulation" thing, too?

    Happened to me again today -- trouble turning off the internal "noise", thoughts roaming around every which way, too fast for me to catch them or make sense of them.
    yes actually. this is one of the reasons why I don't watch football and prefer sports with less people even though I'm an extroverted thinker. I get overstimulated and then I feel cognitive dissonance. It's as you said though with thoughts. For example, I'll learn about worm holes in space and quantum tunneling and then my mind starts to bridge the gap between the two thinking abstractions like there is some sort of conglomerate of mathematical principles which establish this sort of mirror type construct which causes quantum physics and Newtonian physics to run parallel to each other. Then I'll start thinking of how the mirror itself is simply a veil and then i'll start understanding how size is as relative as time and how a molecule might contain a galaxy, or if it just reflects a galaxy, and then it will go on and on, each detail presented by a science publication or a documentary gives me a million ideas and thoughts.

    The most annoying thing though for people around me is that I not only need to think about it but I need to speak it out loud as a think it and this is what gets me in to trouble. I'll literally be talking to myself out loud about quantum physics and it's philosophical implications, potentialities, etc....and my thoughts and ideas will be changed by input from others...it's a sort of group think. If someone thinks I'm being pedantic it could end up making me look ignorant but what is really happening is that my mind is merging with the other as I externalize all my thoughts.

    Then I'll be like, "oh darn where I am my keys, or darn I forgot my phone in the store."

    I've learned after 21 years of age, I'm now 29, to filter and pause and reflect and understand context and not to assume everyone has the same basic level of AP physics and biology that I do. Truth be told even doctors who go to med school don't fully understand basic ideas involving quantum physics - it requires a sort of socio-physical imagination, a word I made up partially borrowed from the idea of a sociological imagination which allows one to put themselves in the shoes of someone from another time period. That's how I feel about quantum physics...you have to put yourself in the shoes of a quantum. I don't fully understand the math but when I read things I can deconstruct the arguments into parts. I don't like to argue though on message boards about it. Mostly I like to go on the boards and share brief snippets. I hate the feeling of arguing online and then realizing it doesn't even matter and I wasted all my time...on one hand i refined my argument and it slightly mutated based on the evidence but on the other hand I have responsibilities in life that I have to perform for the sake of my fam and stuff as well as me.

    but yeah the sensory overload is intense. I didn't always realize it. I would go out and be bombarded by sensory information not realize that other people were handling it while it caused me to shut down and withdraw and become introverted which is what ENTJ's tend to do when they are thwarted from using their main functions - they withdraw and isolate themselves.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
    Likes EJCC liked this post

  9. #9
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sp
    Posts
    2,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Huh! I think that applies to ExTJs as well. Usually when I emerge from those inferior-Fi states, it's when I've made sense of it enough that I can summarize it to people in a reasonable, Te-dom way. Which is almost exactly what that quote is describing: talking about feelings without actually showing any feeling.
    That's kind of what I was getting at in my first post.

    *These enrage me in a matter of seconds. I've yelled at people in those situations and had them react to me like I was crazy.
    I think I know what that's like. Trying to explain this to people in a civilized manner doesn't seem to work very well because they don't actually take you seriously until you're screaming and breaking things.

    The "overstimulation" thing, too?

    Happened to me again today -- trouble turning off the internal "noise", thoughts roaming around every which way, too fast for me to catch them or make sense of them.
    Maybe. I know there are times when I'm really low and I have trouble focusing.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  10. #10
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Off the top of my head, loneliness, health problems/chronic pain, people asking for my input on something I'm knowledgeable about (which is presumably why they're asking me in the first place) and then not listening to me, especially when they do it again and again..
    Do you mean when they're feigning interest half-heartedly or just generally not respecting your expertise when you give it?

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Huh! I think that applies to ExTJs as well. Usually when I emerge from those inferior-Fi states, it's when I've made sense of it enough that I can summarize it to people in a reasonable, Te-dom way. Which is almost exactly what that quote is describing: talking about feelings without actually showing any feeling.
    I think it's probably more deliberate state of rumination for ExTJs - the inward Fi moments happen much more instantaneously for me. That's why INFPs have those weird zoned out moments or smile to themselves with amusement in the middle of a conversation. It's also why we seem out of step with others because others are seeing a reaction to an reaction and it just seems like a non-sequitur.

    The funny thing is that it's exactly the same for me with Te conclusions as it is for you with Fi. I need to go away and think about it and try to consult my thoughts/impressions/feelings and organise, summarise and represent them in an orderly fashion. The net result is much the same too: a degree of attachment from and perspective over the immediate feeling.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
    Likes EJCC liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. TE DOMINANTS - READ THIS NOW AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK!
    By Ezra in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-13-2010, 11:52 AM
  2. [Te] Growing up with an Te-dominant
    By entropie in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-21-2010, 02:54 AM
  3. Is there a connection between Te/Fi ratio and self-esteem ?
    By Virtual ghost in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-10-2009, 06:59 PM
  4. [Si] Sp, lack of Si, and internal vision
    By Poki in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-13-2009, 12:38 AM
  5. Dominance\thrustworthiness and facial expressions
    By EcK in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-11-2009, 04:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO