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  1. #201
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    ah, gotcha.

    but yeah, i don't think banning is the best course of action in this case. bluewing does have redeeming qualities. his more abrasive qualities i suppose are just part and parcel and can be curbed by say, moving threads like this to a section labeled "flame bait" or "useless but funny." his threads having prime space in the main sections of the site are in effect partially legitimizing what he has to say. that combined with his unusually elloquent style sort of reinforce how much weight people give to what he says. if, however, this type of his stuff were explicitly labeled as "trash" or "flame bait" then i don't think people would find his ramblings so offensive or take him so seriously.

    that's what i think at least.

    I think the arguments are indeed substantial. The emotional reaction (flame bait) was not relevant to the arguments made. It is a problem with the reader, and not what is read. (Namely their propensity to make value judgments where they do not belong, hence reinforces my argument concerning the need to avoid the use of 'Feeling' in rational discourse)

    So far those who have said my claims were unsound have not backed this claim up with argument, and the few who have attempted to, misunderstood the text. Just like you did last time. I invite you to try again, this time after a more careful reading of the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    full of non sequiturs, false dichotimites and the like. just an overall feeling i have regarding his arguments
    This is likely the reason why you keep on misinterpreting, as you go by an 'overall feeling' and not careful analysis of what is written.

    I don't see any dichotomies or non-sequitars, as Samuel earlier mentioned, you're providing anecdotal support for my claims by relying on 'Feeling' when dealing with my posts and in effect making errors that I argue are results of the use of Feeling in rational discourse.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  2. #202
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    So far those who have said my claims were unsound have not backed this claim up with argument, and the few who have attempted to, misunderstood the text. Just like you did last time. I invite you to try again, this time after a more careful reading of the text.
    Well this is a total lie. Counter arguments have been made against you, and your own arguments have been scanned for logical and factual errors many times.

    Anyway, you never answered the highly vital question of why anyone should think you have a superior understanding of objective truth.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #203
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am confused.

    Summarize in 3 sentences what 'moderate' means and how Plato's view is more moderate than mine.

    Plato is the one who robs them out of the right of voice because they are plain stupid, despite that he involves them in his plans that you mention. I insist that they should not be left out, but as prerequisite for this, they must learn to think for themselves.

    I'll do two better.... Plato's more moderate because his upheaval of society as we know it is less drastic than yours.

    You're not advocating democracy, where all voices are heard... at best, you're advocating a meritocracy where the criteria of what is meritorious are strictly defined by your idea of how people should be and think, which is actually pretty totalitarian, insofar as the only 'in' people are those who subscribe to your line of thinking.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

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  4. #204
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I'll do two better.... Plato's more moderate because his upheaval of society as we know it is less drastic than yours.

    You're not advocating democracy, where all voices are heard... at best, you're advocating a meritocracy where the criteria of what is meritorious are strictly defined by your idea of how people should be and think, which is actually pretty totalitarian, insofar as the only 'in' people are those who subscribe to your line of thinking.
    Its not my line of thinking. Language of reason holds the same relationship to all.

    Meritocracy in the regard that only those who have merit (able to reason clearly) have the right of voice. But unlike Plato's system, this does not involve a hierarchy of classes. Everyone is granted an opportunity to have a right of voice.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #205
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Its not my line of thinking. Language of reason holds the same relationship to all.
    You say it is not your line of thinking, but you are the one postulating and putting forward all of these ideas in this thread. And while you say it is not your line of thinking, it would have to be your subjective opinion to assert that this line of thinking is the only right one.

    Haven't you consdidered that you may not fully know what the universal, unbiased, language of reason is?

    Isn't it possible that you are putting forward a subjectively developed brand of thought unique to you?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #206
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Haven't you consdidered that you may not fully know what this universal, unbiased, language of reason is?
    Hmmm...I wonder how anyone can claim to have total knowledge, total wisdom, and total understanding. I mean anyone.



    And if you have a situation where you have people define what is rational and what isn't, I still think human beings would abuse their power and end up with a totally different result.

    If we were talking about machines, I would pat BW on the back and say what a smart guy he is. But we are not. We're talking about human beings.

    Sure, more "logic" should go into decision making. Take a look at all the awful decisions made on some kind of ideological pretense. Or FDR's New Deal that went totally awry and had to go through some serious, SERIOUS reform. Take a look at America's DISASTEROUS foreign policy. Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and (good heavens) GWB. Take a look at the crazy so-called American Dream. Take a look at Manifest Destiny. Take a look at a lot of crazy policies based on idealistic pie-in-the-sky crap. Sure, BW, I agree.

    But we need to be very careful, and I do not think you can just cop out by saying "We do not need to define "logic" and "thought" because these are universal terms that people know - provided that they are "enlightened" enough." No, I do not think so. And it's not because of us crazy NFs, SJs, or SPs, either. I think even NTs would all disagree.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #207
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I think even NTs would all disagree.
    BlueWing seems convinced that he has some reasoning that, if followed, will eventually become clearly correct to everyone. And if it never appears correct to a particular NT, BlueWing's solution to that is calling the dissenter something other than an NT.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #208
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    BlueWing seems convinced that he has some reasoning that, if followed, will eventually become clearly correct to everyone. And if it never appears correct to a particular NT, BlueWing's solution to that is calling the dissenter something other than an NT.
    Sounds logical, hehehe!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  9. #209
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    BlueWing seems convinced that he has some reasoning that, if followed, will eventually become clearly correct to everyone. And if it never appears correct to a particular NT, BlueWing's solution to that is calling the dissenter something other than an NT.
    There was something like this, once.

    I think it had something to do with the Cold War...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #210
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I'll do two better.... Plato's more moderate because his upheaval of society as we know it is less drastic than yours.

    You're not advocating democracy, where all voices are heard... at best, you're advocating a meritocracy where the criteria of what is meritorious are strictly defined by your idea of how people should be and think, which is actually pretty totalitarian, insofar as the only 'in' people are those who subscribe to your line of thinking.
    I haven't read everything BlueWing wrote but I agree with you. This is not democracy.

    There is some irony in what BlueWing proposes. People, in BlueWing's society who would want to ensure their survival, would simply agree with BlueWing and would not form their own opinions and would not think for themselves because if they did... BlueWing might consider their beliefs irrational and stupid and have them executed. I guess it doesn't matter to BlueWing because he doesn't want a democracy but rather a small world where the 'geniuses' can discuss philosophy all day and all the things that are good and bad with the world are eradicated.

    I get that BlueWing doesn't think that the typical Feeler does 'think for himself or herself' but it is his or her choice to make decisions based on what other people think!

    It is important to add what other people think into the decision-making process- it is important to listen to other people's ideas- however, it is never a good idea to simply submit to a will of another person. I would never do this personally. However, while I can persuade another person that this method of making decisions is wrong- I can't force a person- I wouldn't want a force person to change his or her method. No human being is perfect. Every human being is fallible. We all have different strengths. I think that it is possible to learn something new from anyone- whether the opportunity is to teach another person, learn from him or both.
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