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  1. #141
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I don't think your responses have been very mature.
    If I can't expect him to answer me, I don't have any motivation to argue with him.

    You might ask what the hell I am doing here. I don't know, I guess I'm just expressing that I disagree while not going more deeply in the reasons.

    And if you think I'm childish because I took ignoring personally... it isn't that personal. I just don't want to waste my time writing stuff that will not be read anyway. That's quite logical, since I have some drinking to be done today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    He drives folks to drink.

  2. #142
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The best thing to do with Bluewing when he starts threads like this one is to ignore him. He thinks that people ought to be more rational, and with that much most would agree. There is no abundance of rationality in the world, and too much irrationality, whether it manifests itself as dogmatism or relativism. However, Bluewing has, rather crudely, latched onto the thinking-feeling distinction from MBTI as a way to distinguish between rationality and irrationalty (there is, perhaps, a noteworthy correlation). In any case, emotions are not the enemy of rationality, and there is no intrinsic competition between feelings and reason. Indeed, even the most calm logician can make errors of reasoning, while an emotive student reasons with impeccable clarity.

    I am profoundly passionate about rationality and knowledge, and that is not something which I want to lose. Emotions are not the enemy, they are the motivation.
    Pay attention to this post.

  3. #143
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The best thing to do with Bluewing when he starts threads like this one is to ignore him. He thinks that people ought to be more rational, and with that much most would agree. There is no abundance of rationality in the world, and too much irrationality, whether it manifests itself as dogmatism or relativism. However, Bluewing has, rather crudely, latched onto the thinking-feeling distinction from MBTI as a way to distinguish between rationality and irrationalty (there is, perhaps, a noteworthy correlation). In any case, emotions are not the enemy of rationality, and there is no intrinsic competition between feelings and reason. Indeed, even the most calm logician can make errors of reasoning, while an emotive student reasons with impeccable clarity.

    I am profoundly passionate about rationality and knowledge, and that is not something which I want to lose. Emotions are not the enemy, they are the motivation.
    Hell yes.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #144
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    That's sweet of you. Well... honestly... I would like to begin by hammering out a definition of the Feeling function that everyone agrees on. Then Thinking... and then use real-life examples of how Rational decision-making does or ought to incorporate one, the other, or both.

    Frankly, I'm largely in agreement with you, though I do feel Thinking ought to play a more substantial role in hammering out details and the larger arcs of the structures. I understand Feeling as crucial to setting up basic understandings from which one can move forward.

    I actually need to go off for dinner (it's 9 PM here!) but I promise I'll be back.

    All's well that ends well, eh L-square?
    Right, hon, no worries! You make a good point which I should have asked before: How are we defining feeling and thinking?

    If my assumptions are correct - regarding domestic and foreign policy - I think feeling could be defined as: "Ideologically-based decision making"

    Thinking could be defined as: ummm...give me a second here..."Factually-based decision making." (That's an awful definition - maybe you can help me, here).

    Assuming that feeling is ideologically-based decision making, one must define to which extent ideology, whether explicit or implicit, affects the decision-making process.

    Is it even possible to make a decision that is totally "unbiased"? And how do we define "unbiased"? (e.g.: totally based upon fact without any external influence)? How can we be sure that our decisions are totally based on facts when facts themselves are determined from our own perceptions?

    Assuming it is possible, how do we define who fits into this category and who does not? Blue maintains that there is some kind of evaluation system where this is possible, but I challenge him to prove it.

    I think that's a fair and rational critique, right?
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  5. #145
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    My main problem with your policy, BW is that it contains a multitude of shoulds and oughts that seem to me to stem from your personal value judgements.
    The difference is those personal values are backed up by analysis. Just like science and religion both have values but science unlike religion also wants to know why we should have such values.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #146
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Pay attention to this post.
    Will do.
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  7. #147
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Pay attention to this post.
    Would you reason better when you are calm and reasoning about a matter that you have very little or no emotional attachment to? Or about a matter concerning your children, your wife, your retirement fund, etc? When all 3 of those may be under attack?

    At which time will you wish to submit a sample of your work as a thinker?

    Who is less likely to make errors in reasoning, a logician? Or his student in his logic class who happens to be a melancholy poet?

    The former seems to show that passions do indeed obtrude our rationale. The latter that the better we are at reasoning clearly(prerequisite for this is learning to put your emotions to the background as otherwise you're unlikely to follow the logical form accurately enough) the less errors in the process we shall make.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #148
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post

    Who is less likely to make errors in reasoning, a logician? Or his student in his logic class who happens to be a melancholy poet?
    As I've said before, you must check out Decision Theory. You'd enjoy the numbers and bolts that configure into tiered logical nests.


    Context is important when dealing with human interchange, BW. This isn't math. Rarely are important interpersonal decisions so clinically available for examination.

    As all probabilities aren't explicitly available, it is illogical to presume that a reasoned paradigm is inherently reasonable in its physical discourse -and- that said discourse will necessarily bring about one's ideal goal.

    What is one's ideal goal when dealing with others, BW?

  9. #149
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    As I've said before, you must check out Decision Theory. You'd enjoy the numbers and bolts that configure into tiered logical nests.


    Context is important when dealing with human interchange, BW. This isn't math. Rarely are important interpersonal decisions so clinically available for examination.

    As all probabilities aren't explicitly available, it is illogical to presume that a reasoned paradigm is inherently reasonable in its physical discourse -and- that a reasoned discourse will necessarily bring about one's ideal goal.

    What is one's ideal goal, when dealing with others, BW?
    That depends on the context as you have mentioned before. We must sit down and analyze each situation the best we can and make the decision appropriate for what we are dealing with. Take it on case by case basis.

    As you point out, there are difficulties establishing a system in such a clinical context, yet this does not at all show that these difficulties are insurmountable. Clearly, some will be very difficult to overcome, yet many of them we should be able to conquer. Our hitherto success in philosophy and science seems to attest to this.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #150
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    T hat depends on the context as you have mentioned before. We must sit down and analyze each situation the best we can and make the decision appropriate for what we are dealing with. Take it on case by case basis.
    Precisely correct. Each scenario provides uniquely individual variables.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    As you point out, there are difficulties establishing a system in such a clinical context, yet this does not at all show that these difficulties are insurmountable. Clearly, some will be very difficult to overcome, yet many of them we should be able to conquer. Our hitherto success in philosophy and science seems to attest to this.
    I agree.

    Efficiency in process is of primary importance, if one desires a conclusion of absolute merit (that is to say, a conclusion absent subjective variables extraneous to one's goal - if this outcome is to be believed as probable).

    Stepping back, we need to confront a much larger obstacle.

    Refining ourselves to our present problem of ignorance is the first - and greatest - trapdoor to traverse. Unfortunately, this first step must deal with a platform inherently committed to the development of falsifiable data. From objectivity, must objectivity properly develop...

    The MBTI is thusly inapplicable for consultation.

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