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  1. #131
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Alright... as I said, I also disagree with much of what Bluewing posted, but I felt emotions went a little far. Indeed, I may have gone a little far in defending Bluewing.

    Maybe I'm just upset at how this whole discussion went, and looking back at some of Bluewing's later postings, I can see why people were upset.

    <sigh>
    I admit that I took things too far and acted like a hormonally-engorged teenage dumbass. However, I just wish we could have a fair debate, and then my emotions tend not to get as charged.

    So let's go back to my above statements and maybe he can clarify and/or comment in a way that does not advocate starving us all.
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  2. #132
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I submit.

    <natam natam anyatram gamishyaami> <drooping I shall go elsewhere>
    Noooo, I really admire your opinion, and to be honest I admire your ability to stand firm and resolute and rational through the whole thing. I wish I could.


    So now, tell me what you think because I would be very interested in knowing - if you are not too awfully offended by what I said to discuss with me.
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  3. #133
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I admit that I took things too far and acted like a hormonally-engorged teenage dumbass. However, I just wish we could have a fair debate, and then my emotions tend not to get as charged.

    So let's go back to my above statements and maybe he can clarify and/or comment in a way that does not advocate starving us all.
    I say a new thread ought to be started (I will, but on another day...) which discusses the role of Feeling in rational decision-making. There have been others, but in light of new information and recent experiences, a fresh start may be in order.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  4. #134
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well... if he did say that, my opinion will stand amended, but I can't find where he said Feelers should starve, and even if he did, I don't think your responses have been very mature.

    ____

    I frankly don't agree with much of what Bluewing's saying, particularly when it comes to the manner of instruction in the arts and literary fields, but it seems like the longer a thread continues the more likely it is that name-calling and finger-pointing take center-stage and push aside reasoned debate. And this is where an important moral can be derived from Bluewing's OP rant.

    But I generally do agree that controversially-value based judgments ought not be allowed in civic institutions and those that exist ought to be debated with a minimum of rhetoric and a maximum of carefully-laid out reasoning. I, however, am far more moderate in my view than Bluewing.

    _________________

    The WHOLE POINT is not whether I agree with Bluewing, which with careful consideration I do not when it comes to some of his policies, but his idea that a mass movement to reduce unnecessary emotional input in public policy is one I firmly believe in. The posts on and the name of this thread are testament to its correctness. I'm ready to give reasons why, and if someone disagrees, he/she ought to say why not instead of name-calling.
    Here are the two posts I think LL et. al. are referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Agreed.

    As aforementioned. We can expect a havoc as a result of this operation. But when it is all said we will be in a much better shape to change the world for the better.

    Those who seem unwilling to think objectively no matter what will just have to adjust or die out.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I have not yet figured out how to make this happen. Its not primarily a diatribe, because there is rationale for why such a view is sound in theory.

    Its all very consistent.

    Not everyone is rational? Too bad. We are going to set up a society in a way that they will have to be rational, or starve!
    To me it IS slightly ironic that BW's idealistic society rests upon his own value judgments. And I think some of these statements do seem slightly unhinged. BUT- I agree that there is a seed of reason in there, that misjudging subjectivity for objectivity is a source of some of the world's problems. I don't think we need to adopt BW's values which rate objectivity higher than subjectivity. I do think we need to be very aware of when our ideas are subjective, and acknowledge that our subjective values are not intrinsically worth more than anyone else's.

    Even when we are being truly objective I think we need to allow for the possibility that we are mistaken. As was discussed in reason's "boredom" thread a few days ago, we've got to be able to go forward with whatever is the best theory at the time, without being married to it.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #135
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I say a new thread ought to be started (I will, but on another day...) which discusses the role of Feeling in rational decision-making. There have been others, but in light of new information and recent experiences, a fresh start may be in order.
    Fair enough. If you start a new one and start the debate anew, I promise to behave. Really!!!
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  6. #136
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    The best thing to do with Bluewing when he starts threads like this one is to ignore him. He thinks that people ought to be more rational, and with that much most would agree. There is no abundance of rationality in the world, and too much irrationality, whether it manifests itself as dogmatism or relativism. However, Bluewing has, rather crudely, latched onto the thinking-feeling distinction from MBTI as a way to distinguish between rationality and irrationalty (there is, perhaps, a noteworthy correlation). In any case, emotions are not the enemy of rationality, and there is no intrinsic competition between feelings and reason. Indeed, even the most calm logician can make errors of reasoning, while an emotive student reasons with impeccable clarity.

    I am profoundly passionate about rationality and knowledge, and that is not something which I want to lose. Emotions are not the enemy, they are the motivation.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #137
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Noooo, I really admire your opinion, and to be honest I admire your ability to stand firm and resolute and rational through the whole thing. I wish I could.


    So now, tell me what you think because I would be very interested in knowing - if you are not too awfully offended by what I said to discuss with me.
    That's sweet of you. Well... honestly... I would like to begin by hammering out a definition of the Feeling function that everyone agrees on. Then Thinking... and then use real-life examples of how Rational decision-making does or ought to incorporate one, the other, or both.

    Frankly, I'm largely in agreement with you, though I do feel Thinking ought to play a more substantial role in hammering out details and the larger arcs of the structures. I understand Feeling as crucial to setting up basic understandings from which one can move forward.

    I actually need to go off for dinner (it's 9 PM here!) but I promise I'll be back.

    All's well that ends well, eh L-square?
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  8. #138
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Here are the two posts I think LL et. al. are referring to:





    To me it IS slightly ironic that BW's idealistic society rests upon his own value judgments. And I think some of these statements do seem slightly unhinged. BUT- I agree that there is a seed of reason in there, that misjudging subjectivity for objectivity is a source of some of the world's problems. I don't think we need to adopt BW's values which rate objectivity higher than subjectivity. I do think we need to be very aware of when our ideas are subjective, and acknowledge that our subjective values are worth no more than anyone else's.
    Yes, I believe it is the cause for a lot of America's misjudgements regarding foreign policy, Ivy. When the government started to think that its ideology was the be-all, end-all, so to speak - yeahhhh, that did not bode well for its future dealings.

    What do you think?
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  9. #139
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Yes, LL, I agree. Subjectivity is not going away. We need to know when to put it aside as best we can, though, and see from a third person perspective. This is not 100% possible but we can still strive for it.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  10. #140
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    He thinks that people ought to be more rational, and with that much most people agree There is no abundance of rationality in the world, and too much irrationality, whether it manifests itself as dogmatism or relativism. However, Bluewing has, rather crudely, latched onto the thinking-feeling distinction from MBTI as a way to distinguish between rationality and irrationalty. In any case, emotions are not the enemy of rationality, and there is no intrinsic competition between feelings and reason. Indeed, even the most calm logician can make errors of reasoning, while an emotive student reasons with impeccable clarity.

    I am profoundly passionate about rationality and knowledge, and that is not something which I want to lose.
    This is one point (the bolded part) on which I wholly agree with you.

    Having re-read most of the thread, I see that Bluewing's approach to the Feeling-Thinking functions is actually quite emotional... so there needs to be a better way of discussing the whole thing....
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

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