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  1. #41
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Someone pinch me and tell me this is not one of those weird, bizarre dreams I generally have....
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  2. #42
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Use your N man!

    No need for logical structure obviously. It is whatever your imagination shall conjure! FEEL! It is all a matter of FEEL my friend!

    As stated in the OP, you can spin it out to be any cause you want, irrespectively of content of the argument! Such is the power of human emotion, I fall on my knees in my humble admiration.
    FEEL!!! DAMN IT!!! FEEL! My logical NT demands that you FEEL!!! Now! Upon my command!!!
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  3. #43
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We clearly need both Thinking and Feeling, though just a lot more Thinking than Feeling as Feeling if left unchecked will become torrential. It requires strict supervision.

    Also, scholars have a much less clear idea of what Jesus, Buddha and Confucius taught than they do of what philosophers and scientists that I have mentioned taught.

    The NF caricature I have in mind is not one that lacks Thinking altogether, but one who supresses it to a great extent. We see many examples of these in the world, and even on this board. They are the ones responsible for the problems cited above.
    Yes, it requires supervision. It is the black sheep of the MBTI family. Dang, hang it all, why can't you all be SJs...Good thing some of you are to keep those lousy, good for nothing NFs at bay....Oh good LAWDY!!!! lol If I did not think this guy were serious, I would laugh my spleen out of my throat.
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  4. #44
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    There's a lot going on in this thread...

    BW,

    Authority is neither personal, nor traditional, nor based on majority opinion--as you well know. Don't rush to conclusions about whether Jesus, Ghandi, or Buddha knew the goal(s) they were pursuing or whether they accomplished their respective goals, because you've encountered differing interpretations given by various persons and groups of persons about who these individuals were and what they thought/taught. The OP is a hasty generalization--you need to show what you are saying is true.

    I must mention the implication that Jesus sought approbation from men is false. He sought the approval that comes from God, not from men.

    If we truly have serious intentions about making the world a better place we ought to stop and think, organize our mindset into something coherent and then see how this could be implemented to the external world. It should be founded upon a clear-cut rationale concerning making the world a better place, not torrential passions.
    Well said. (Behold, BW's Feeling!). But why should I not be a skeptic or a fideist? Can you show that rational justification is possible, and that it is necessary in order to achieve the good?

  5. #45
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I am?

    Oh dear. I hate it when that happens.



    Well, to be obvious: I didn't think we were discussing the absurd extremities between pure cold logic and utter metaphysical fluff, I thought we were discussing the more insidiously inherent subjective bias in the observational powers of any consciousness that is not omniscient and thus has no capability to see all things from all sides at one time.

    And you have no way to evaluate the "objectivity" of your logic, either, as you operate within it rather than outside of it.

    To whit, your "logic" might scream that the ghost is not there.
    But you have no way to know it's not.


    ...and yeah, you'll never be a Jedi.
    Never!
    Kidding right? No way to evaluate the objectivity of logic concerning a mathematical theorem?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Unfortunately your original post doesn't resemble 2+2 = 4 as much as it resembles "IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it!". You have an irrational dislike of feeling that is even more extreme than your irrational viewpoints of inferiority toward anything that isn't INTP. Your only reason that feelers are bad is that they are the opposite of thinkers. That is not a sufficiently good reason. You're going to have to give a better reason that "I just know it!"
    I am not talking about my dislike of Feeling. Only objective arguments concerning Feeling.

    The argument was about the essence of Feeling, as an element in itself it does not tell us what things are, only how agreeable they are to me.

    Take it from there..try to keep it within context next time. Dont read between the lines in attempt to psychologize BlueWing, just respond to what is stated.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #47
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    1. being a feeler does not mean you make all your decisions in the heart of emotional turmoil. all it means, is that you make VALUE BASED DECISIONS. THEY CAN STILL BE RATIONAL AND STAND ON THEIR OWN AS MUCH AS 2 + 2 = 4: altruism, nurturing, forgiveness, not trying to fuck everyone over that you deal with in business just because you can. value based decisions can be still rational and/or irrational in the way 2 + 2 can equal 5 and 2 + 2 cannot equal 6.

    just because some idiot over in isheeevamedrawewrs islama land has made an irrational use of value based judgements does not mean that feeling is inherently an irrational function. "logic" Te, Se... hell, "any function users" can be just as bad at creating horrible logic to justify some terrible idea or justice.




    2.
    "All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery. They will later be used as an instrument to promote a political agenda of this or that delegation. The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes."

    Just because some OTHER idiot misuses the original texts or drives a cause beyond where its original intent was, does not indict the ORIGINAL MOVEMENT:

    example: there is very little biblical basis for most of what the catholic church does administratively and powers of their ritual. Therefore i would say it is wrong to blame jesus for THEIR screw ups. The crusades were fought by mostly non christian and was more of a cultural war. the crusader armies even sacked european cities just for the pilage (indicative of their true motives in joining the crusades). there is a huge and obvious difference between accusing the neighbor widow of killing your cow and actaul demonic happenings (the witch trials are another horrible way to "crucify" christianity).

    3. we live in a very dumb world. the average IQ is actually SCARY when you think about what kind of intellect the avg person is working with. I would argue that if everyone were a "T" trying to be "logical" all the time with over half the pop with less than a 100 IQ, we'd actually be more likely to get these crazy ideologies you attribute to F's because they would find scary ways to "logically" justify suppressed feelings.

    4. I would argue that more world evils are committed by T people like yourself, who suppress and then justify their weak value judgment faculties with their overly trusted logical rationalizing of what they do....

    5.
    the real problem is not that people make value judgments. the problem is when people think they can rationalize EVERYTHING. and so rather than analyze how these value judgments affect people, they just spend time devising what sounds the most logical:
    example evidence: EUGENICS. eugenics actaully logically makes a TON of LOGICAL sense for the human race. round up every fat perosn, every AIDS patient, every retard, every Bi polar and euthanize them. The best genes will continue on for the best of the human race.

    eugenics is my best example for what a world of T's without value judgments would look like....

    1) You're talking about Fs with a well developed T. Thats out of context.

    2) The problem is the original NF leaders relied on emotion too much to convince others. They presented in a way that was almost begging to be misunderstood at best and contorted at worst.

    4 and 5 you need to clarify..i dont get what your point is. When you've done that. Clarify point 3 as that one seems to be a different idea from 4 and 5.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #48
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Feeling has to have a kind of rationale behind, or never would have been a judging function.

    Check my thread 'How rational is Feeling'. I've covered this in detail. Jung was careless to run it together with Thinking as a 'rational' function. It is certainly not rational in the colloquial sense of the term.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #49
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    I am not here for a biography of these men. I am just going by a conventional understanding of who they are as means to the end of exemplifying the NF psyche at work. They clearly resemble the 'NF caricature', especially if we go by the Keirseyan rendition of the matter.

    Those would of been hasty generalizations if I said that every NF person must be like this. Yet the argument was Feeling is amorphous by definition and so is Intuition, as a result there is a very loose and unclear agenda, yet boldly impassioned due to Feeling. This matches well with the idea of NF stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I must mention the implication that Jesus sought approbation from men is false. He sought the approval that comes from God, not from men.?
    That depends from what account we derive our idea of who Jesus was from! Who knows what all those Heretics that Constantine burned would report he was like?

    It is not even clear what Jesus understood for God to be. And many of his actions, especially when he preaches like 'those who do not agree with me will burn in Hell! I tell you the truth, noone comes to the father if he does not lessen himself to a child's attitude and believes me blindly!' In a nutshell was what he was saying. I doubt I need to cite where in scripture he said this, its all too notorious by now. Seems to be here he is more concerned with being accepted by men than the Guy who sits up in the clouds watching him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Well said. (Behold, BW's Feeling!). But why should I not be a skeptic or a fideist? Can you show that rational justification is possible, and that it is necessary in order to achieve the good?
    You should not be a fideist because you will unconsciously seek out arguments that are in favor of your religion and have an aversion to those that are not.

    If you declare faith more important than truth, you certainly have some barriers to jump over in your quest to attain intellectual integrity. You will never be an honest fideist, or be able to seperate your intellectual convictions from your religious, there will be a crippling cognitive dissonance which will force you to become a theistic rationalist and in effect succumb to the problem I have outlined above concerning intellectual integrity.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #50
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    Of course we could all be NT's and the world would be a miserable bitter place :p
    And everything would work out fine because no one would care about how miserable and bitter it was.
    we fukin won boys

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