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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    nolla, the quote refers to how scientists often get spirituality/religion all wrong, as trying to understand it from a scientific viewpoint can only make it seem "unscientific" and "irrational", which is quite correct but really misses the point. Richard Dawkin's (INTP?) "The root of all evil?" is a good example of this.
    Well, yes, but the mystic might be dismissive of the scientific mindset as well, not giving it the proper amount of credibility in the discussion that it deserves.

    (Your response sort of highlights this deficiency.)

    So the point is that the scientist can see what the mystic is saying but tends to credit science more; the mystic can see what the scientist is staying, but tends to credit their insight more.

    Why? Because they're both biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    There was an analysis of this. Remember, subjectivity is okay as long as it is not a deciding factor.
    Sooooo.... why don't you consider subjectivity to be the deciding factor in the OP again?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, yes, but the mystic might be dismissive of the scientific mindset as well, not giving it the proper amount of credibility in the discussion that it deserves.

    (Your response sort of highlights this deficiency.)

    So the point is that the scientist can see what the mystic is saying but tends to credit science more; the mystic can see what the scientist is staying, but tends to credit their insight more.

    Why? Because they're both biased.



    Sooooo.... why don't you consider subjectivity to be the deciding factor in the OP again?
    You're totally confused. There is subjectivity to all things as they are filtered through our internal perceptions, yet they could be backed up by objective judgment. Such as impersonal reasoning. This enterprise is now commonly regarded as formal logic/mathematics. (Will need to read Frege more on this for the argument on why logic and mathematics are identical). But the point being, to say that 2 plus 2 is 4 or that I saw John take my shoes, therefore he took them is different from saying IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it! Trust the Feel!
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #33

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    Dude, bluewing... It's called the force. Get it right.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You're totally confused.
    I am?

    Oh dear. I hate it when that happens.

    There is subjectivity to all things as they are filtered through our internal perceptions, yet they could be backed up by objective judgment. Such as impersonal reasoning. This enterprise is now commonly regarded as formal logic/mathematics. (Will need to read Frege more on this for the argument on why logic and mathematics are identical). But the point being, to say that 2 plus 2 is 4 or that I saw John take my shoes, therefore he took them is different from saying IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it! Trust the Feel!
    Well, to be obvious: I didn't think we were discussing the absurd extremities between pure cold logic and utter metaphysical fluff, I thought we were discussing the more insidiously inherent subjective bias in the observational powers of any consciousness that is not omniscient and thus has no capability to see all things from all sides at one time.

    And you have no way to evaluate the "objectivity" of your logic, either, as you operate within it rather than outside of it.

    To whit, your "logic" might scream that the ghost is not there.
    But you have no way to know it's not.


    ...and yeah, you'll never be a Jedi.
    Never!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    Bah, you can't argue against a quote. That's why I made it a quote, I just thought there was some truth to it, even if it wasn't *mine*. And that's why I didn't argue back.

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Bah, you can't argue against a quote.
    I did.
    And I have!

    That's why I made it a quote, I just thought there was some truth to it, even if it wasn't *mine*. And that's why I didn't argue back.
    Nice try.

    But if you buy and wear the t-shirt, then you can't complain when you get hit by a tomato.

    ... you'll never be a Jedi either!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You're totally confused. There is subjectivity to all things as they are filtered through our internal perceptions, yet they could be backed up by objective judgment. Such as impersonal reasoning. This enterprise is now commonly regarded as formal logic/mathematics. (Will need to read Frege more on this for the argument on why logic and mathematics are identical). But the point being, to say that 2 plus 2 is 4 or that I saw John take my shoes, therefore he took them is different from saying IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it! Trust the Feel!
    Unfortunately your original post doesn't resemble 2+2 = 4 as much as it resembles "IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it!". You have an irrational dislike of feeling that is even more extreme than your irrational viewpoints of inferiority toward anything that isn't INTP. Your only reason that feelers are bad is that they are the opposite of thinkers. That is not a sufficiently good reason. You're going to have to give a better reason that "I just know it!"
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  8. #38
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The question I invite you to explore is whether or not NFs truly have fulfilled their causes. Or in other words, are their endeavors truly worthwhile?

    First of all we should define the matter of the situation as clearly as possible.

    What kind of causes do NFs tend to fight for? In literature they are portrayed as fighters for the happiness of society, the common good, and the welfare of the individual.

    Some examples of those would certainly be Buddha, Jesus and Ghandi.

    We know for sure that this is what the NFs are portrayed as fighters of. But was this really the case?

    In order to truly know this we must psychologize those heroes to see what they were thinking.

    A first step to this would be attempting to discover how an NF's mind works, granted of course that the NF is a pure type.

    They are first and foremost concerned with collecting abstract perceptions of the environment and then making value judgments about those perceptions.

    Both of these are amorphous, as few would find it hard to agree that Feeling is not nearly as neatly organized as thinking. It is moosh.

    Intuition is simply pure abstract perception. From this it seems we are in the position to adduce that the NFs are unlikely to have a clear view of the causes they were fighting for.

    To answer the earlier question, were the causes they truly stood for as magnanimous as we think they were. We do not know. Neither do they. Unless of course those NFs were exceptionally gifted at the use of their inferior or tertiary Thinking faculty, which is highly doubtful.

    What else do we know about Feeling? That it tends to dramatize? Prone to wishful thinking? It seems far more likely that the causes appear magnanimous because NFs and their followers have romanticized them.

    The truth is they were confused individuals driven by blind and amorphous forces of passion who made such great noise of their endeavors because they sought approbation from others. Much akin to a typical drama queen. All of us who operate almost exclusively on emotion will obviously seek affirmation for our passions and will clamor at great length to receive the approval we seek. This is clearly descriptive of the NF stereotype. And certainly the heroes of history such as those listed above were very reminiscent of the NF stereotype.

    In the end, no they have not fulfilled their causes because they did not know what their causes were. Because their modus operandi and message were highly emotional and had little respect for the truth their life and quest were distorted. As a result we have many stories concerning how they fulfilled this or that romantic mission without having a clear idea of what this mission is, much of which has been fabricated altogether by their followers who eulogize them without respite. They are but prey to urban legend for us to exercise our imagination upon, their statures have degenerated into an empty vessel for us to fill in with whatever may serve our purpose. This is why we have many different sects who profess to be followers of Jesus who all have radically different views of who he was and what he taught. This has gone on until Emperor Constantine exacted pogroms of those who disagreed with his view of that man's teaching. Same could be said for Muhammad, Buddha, Ghandi or any other leader who has been purported to have shown us the path to virtue.

    All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery. They will later be used as an instrument to promote a political agenda of this or that delegation. The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes.

    We ought to stop trying to turn Earth into heaven, as we have only succeeded in turning it into hell. NFs ought to stop acting out on their Feelings, no matter how strongly they feel they are doing a good thing. Not only will the vision likely be confusing and inapplicable to the real world, but also being driven by emotion will also lead to a confusing mindset. As obviously emotions do not give us a clear perspective, one distinct example of this is the aforementioned need for approbation such a mindset leads to. This alone suggests that such a hero was driven by unworthy motives. Thirdly, this opens the door for charlatans to take advantage of the cause in any way they see fit.

    If we truly have serious intentions about making the world a better place we ought to stop and think, organize our mindset into something coherent and then see how this could be implemented to the external world. It should be founded upon a clear-cut rationale concerning making the world a better place, not torrential passions.






    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
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    1. being a feeler does not mean you make all your decisions in the heart of emotional turmoil. all it means, is that you make VALUE BASED DECISIONS. THEY CAN STILL BE RATIONAL AND STAND ON THEIR OWN AS MUCH AS 2 + 2 = 4: altruism, nurturing, forgiveness, not trying to fuck everyone over that you deal with in business just because you can. value based decisions can be still rational and/or irrational in the way 2 + 2 can equal 5 and 2 + 2 cannot equal 6.

    just because some idiot over in isheeevamedrawewrs islama land has made an irrational use of value based judgements does not mean that feeling is inherently an irrational function. "logic" Te, Se... hell, "any function users" can be just as bad at creating horrible logic to justify some terrible idea or justice.




    2.
    "All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery. They will later be used as an instrument to promote a political agenda of this or that delegation. The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes."

    Just because some OTHER idiot misuses the original texts or drives a cause beyond where its original intent was, does not indict the ORIGINAL MOVEMENT:

    example: there is very little biblical basis for most of what the catholic church does administratively and powers of their ritual. Therefore i would say it is wrong to blame jesus for THEIR screw ups. The crusades were fought by mostly non christian and was more of a cultural war. the crusader armies even sacked european cities just for the pilage (indicative of their true motives in joining the crusades). there is a huge and obvious difference between accusing the neighbor widow of killing your cow and actaul demonic happenings (the witch trials are another horrible way to "crucify" christianity).

    3. we live in a very dumb world. the average IQ is actually SCARY when you think about what kind of intellect the avg person is working with. I would argue that if everyone were a "T" trying to be "logical" all the time with over half the pop with less than a 100 IQ, we'd actually be more likely to get these crazy ideologies you attribute to F's because they would find scary ways to "logically" justify suppressed feelings.

    4. I would argue that more world evils are committed by T people like yourself, who suppress and then justify their weak value judgment faculties with their overly trusted logical rationalizing of what they do....

    5.
    the real problem is not that people make value judgments. the problem is when people think they can rationalize EVERYTHING. and so rather than analyze how these value judgments affect people, they just spend time devising what sounds the most logical:
    example evidence: EUGENICS. eugenics actaully logically makes a TON of LOGICAL sense for the human race. round up every fat perosn, every AIDS patient, every retard, every Bi polar and euthanize them. The best genes will continue on for the best of the human race.

    eugenics is my best example for what a world of T's without value judgments would look like....

  9. #39
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    But the point being, to say that 2 plus 2 is 4 or that I saw John take my shoes, therefore he took them is different from saying IT FEELS TO ME THERE IS A GHOST IN THIS ROOM! I Just know it! Trust the Feel!
    I'd like to note that the average Feeler, I'd say the vast majority, understands that 2 + 2 = 4, or that seeing someone take shoes is an indication that someone took shoes. On the other hand, I think only a small minority of Feelers would state presence of a ghost based soley on Feeling.
    So your example seems very disengenuous as well as impractical. You're pointing out random, everyman qualities that are Thinking, but only using the most flakey behavior as examples of Feeling.

    Also, your example of the ghost sounds a lot like someone very poorly applying Intuition. Like when someone thinks they can tell that that a certain horse will win a race.

    In general, you seem to have a tendency to mix up the processes. Your depiction of Feeling always leans more toward Extraversion than it needs too. Your depiction of Thinking is like judgement(which is correct) but your depiction of Feeling is almost more like Perception(which is very incorrect). You make Feeling sound like something people use as a sense, and follow without rationlization, which is totally untrue. Feeling has to have a kind of rationale behind, or never would have been a judging function.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #40
    Senior Member Angry Ayrab's Avatar
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    Sounds like someone has too much time on thier hands... Then again, I seem to have alot of that also.

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