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  1. #21
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Its okay to keep the subjective element in perspective as long as we are not ruled by it.
    The whole first post is full of subjectivity. It operates under the assumption that thinking is the ultimate good, and therefore feeling is the ultimate evil. Since this assumption is so radically subjective, then all "logical" conclusions that come from it are also radically subjective.
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  2. #22
    Senor Membrane
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    I didn't read the whole thread, but I will comment the opening post. You basically say that world would be a better place without NF leaders/inspiration. You say they haven't got a concrete idea, so it cannot work.

    I am sure that while Jesus didn't articulate his perfect way perfectly, it still was a concrete example. His life was turned into teaching. You read what he did and you see that there must have been extremely solid foundation for his belief. F does not mean that I go with the tide. I have hierarchy for my values. I respect one rules as long as a big rule is not being challenged. This kind of thinking is not useless. If you only think with T, you'll be smart. But smart people without moral would be even worse than stupid people with morals. Think about "turning the other cheek". How strong you need to be to take voluntarily another punch? This is not some "vague" value that makes you so determined.

    You see the NF movements gone bad. They didn't go bad because Jesus or Buddha was wrong. They went bad because they turned into institutions. The institutions started guarding the value that was going out of date. Some religions still mutilate their children for some old rule. At the moment here church is fighting about gay marriages. F-values evolve, as do your T-ideas. If your idols had settled with 2000-year-old formula and kept to it, sure it would be out of date by now. The mistake was not that we have extraordinarily good people to show us example. The mistake was to not allow people to take those values further.

    And you know. The absence of a good example makes also a big difference. I see many todays values being messed up, and the reason is because everyone is so tired with the old, out-dated religions that they choose not to believe into anything. I know people who think dog-eat-dog, and this is only beginning. It cant be good to take away moral examples. They just shouldn't be thought to be universal truths, they should be seen as products of their time.

    You know, people have a lot more practice of the T-world... this is maybe the biggest reason for the childish use of religion. Nobody teaches you how to really evaluate values, only to accept them. You could say that world has depended so one-sidedly on their logic that their feeling is starving..

  3. #23
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    Or, how about we put it a bit differently. You have an image of the world, which is probably science based. This image of "everything" cannot be articulated. The same goes for a feeler. You would have to put the picture into smaller pieces that you can articulate, still the big picture is in your mind. It is a reality. In the same way I can say that I have a code that works universally for everything I see. Difference between you and me is in preferences. I would rate moral values higher and they would definitely be big parts of my picture, while you could have some scientific theories up there. This difference does not mean that my pieces are less efficiently organized. They have logic in them, because they are related. Check this, I try to give some example of the relation of my values:

    - "People should be respected"

    - "Do good things and don't do bad things"

    Now, these seem simple. But what if someone is mean to me or to someone else? Should I respect him? For this there has to be another, more specific rule.

    - "Stopping bad people is a good deed"

    Now the two values do not contradict, but since "bad people" is vague term, it needs more to it. So, I have all kinds of "small principles" for specific situations.

    - "People cannot be changed"
    - "Good people should be defended"
    - "Bad people are to be pitied"
    - "Trying is not doing"
    - "Forgive"
    etc

    Now, they start to make sense as a big picture and I have my code for nearly all situations. It does make sense to me and if it doesn't, I will feel bad. When I have failed to obey my code, I feel like shit. And I should add that this code is also based on logic. If there's a theory that I accept as part of my values, it becomes integrated. The thing is, I don't do this if I don't "believe" in it. The logic supports the feeling in my case. All of the rules can be logically defended if needed. Their overall function is to make the world at least a bit more friendly place. If there is a theory that contradicts, it will be abandoned, even if it is "true", since it doesn't have the objective I have. Is this not logical? I can't have my principles taking me to different directions.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We want to make sure that we have a clear-cut rationale for all of our decisions. We need just enough Feeling to give ourselves the energy to think.
    Why?
    Criteria?

    We cannot eliminate Feeling altogether. We should go all T, we will have enough emotive energy to go on with our impersonal thoughts whether we like it or not.
    Why?
    How is it decided how much "emotive energy" is the "right amount"?

    For practical purposes, we will do everything to encourage decision-making based on dispassionate, logically consistent reasoning (Thinking) and do everything we can to discourage decisions based on our subjective sentiments (Feeling).
    It's just another framework.
    All frameworks are subjective.

    They have internal consistency, hopefully.
    But they are each only subsets of larger multi-faceted reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    I find this thread highly annoying. Yes I even feel it to be so.
    Gasp!

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  5. #25
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    Haha.

    I don't care to get involved in this but let's just say that trying
    to understand spirituality and emotion from an INTP standpoint can only fail.
    For that you should have at least some Ni or Fi, INTPs lack both.

    "Mystics can understand scientists, but scientists can never understand mystics."

  6. #26
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    We do know what we want, and it seems as if *you* can't or don't understand us, and these things about us, sorry.
    Indeed..

    I barely understand it myself.. I feel my way through life. And it feels good.

    Wait, let me translate that for you, BlueWing:

    I have no idea what cause I'm fighting for! I'm just living for my own wants and needs! And it FEELS good!

    Isn't it fucking crazy? I don't have a plan! Quick! Put on your hygiene mask!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    "Mystics can understand scientists, but scientists can never understand mystics."
    I disagree. As far as we talk about mystical experiences, yes, it is impossible to understand it if you haven't experienced it. But when we talk about the reason of religion, I am sure that even a scientist can understand it and see it as a needed piece of human mind. Obviously religion needs to be defined in broad terms, if we want to understand it scientifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Isn't it fucking crazy? I don't have a plan! Quick! Put on your hygiene mask!

  8. #28
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Indeed..

    I barely understand it myself.. I feel my way through life. And it feels good.

    Wait, let me translate that for you, BlueWing:

    I have no idea what cause I'm fighting for! I'm just living for my own wants and needs! And it FEELS good!

    Isn't it fucking crazy? I don't have a plan! Quick! Put on your hygiene mask!
    Get her !
    She's healthy and self-motivated !
    I N V I C T U S

  9. #29
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    nolla,

    the quote refers to how scientists often get spirituality/religion all wrong, as trying to understand it from a scientific viewpoint can only make it seem "unscientific" and "irrational", which is quite correct but really misses the point. Richard Dawkin's (INTP?) "The root of all evil?" is a good example of this.

  10. #30
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    The whole first post is full of subjectivity. It operates under the assumption that thinking is the ultimate good, and therefore feeling is the ultimate evil. Since this assumption is so radically subjective, then all "logical" conclusions that come from it are also radically subjective.
    There was an analysis of this. Remember, subjectivity is okay as long as it is not a deciding factor.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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