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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The question I invite you to explore is whether or not NFs truly have fulfilled their causes. Or in other words, are their endeavors truly worthwhile?
    So you just want to know our causes, why we pursue them and what they are inspired by. Is that it?

    I'm intentionally ignoring all the T vs F function fluff from this thread and post, which is important too, just so I'll know the initial question so I can answer. So... *ignore* we aren't evil, you know.

    Whether or not the NFs have fulfilled their causes. Depends on NF and their causes, depends how they are attempting to reach it. It's all subjective. Most NFs lack a plan, we just feel our way through life and what is meaningful. Easy to understand, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am not talking about my dislike of Feeling. Only objective arguments concerning Feeling.

    The argument was about the essence of Feeling, as an element in itself it does not tell us what things are, only how agreeable they are to me.

    Take it from there..try to keep it within context next time. Dont read between the lines in attempt to psychologize BlueWing, just respond to what is stated.
    You want discussion over the essence of feeling? That explaines a lot. Your statements confuse me, a lot actually. But may I refer you to nolla's original post, which seemed to make the most sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I didn't read the whole thread, but I will comment the opening post. You basically say that world would be a better place without NF leaders/inspiration. You say they haven't got a concrete idea, so it cannot work.

    I am sure that while Jesus didn't articulate his perfect way perfectly, it still was a concrete example. His life was turned into teaching. You read what he did and you see that there must have been extremely solid foundation for his belief. F does not mean that I go with the tide. I have hierarchy for my values. I respect one rules as long as a big rule is not being challenged. This kind of thinking is not useless. If you only think with T, you'll be smart. But smart people without moral would be even worse than stupid people with morals. Think about "turning the other cheek". How strong you need to be to take voluntarily another punch? This is not some "vague" value that makes you so determined.

    You see the NF movements gone bad. They didn't go bad because Jesus or Buddha was wrong. They went bad because they turned into institutions. The institutions started guarding the value that was going out of date. Some religions still mutilate their children for some old rule. At the moment here church is fighting about gay marriages. F-values evolve, as do your T-ideas. If your idols had settled with 2000-year-old formula and kept to it, sure it would be out of date by now. The mistake was not that we have extraordinarily good people to show us example. The mistake was to not allow people to take those values further.

    And you know. The absence of a good example makes also a big difference. I see many todays values being messed up, and the reason is because everyone is so tired with the old, out-dated religions that they choose not to believe into anything. I know people who think dog-eat-dog, and this is only beginning. It cant be good to take away moral examples. They just shouldn't be thought to be universal truths, they should be seen as products of their time.

    You know, people have a lot more practice of the T-world... this is maybe the biggest reason for the childish use of religion. Nobody teaches you how to really evaluate values, only to accept them. You could say that world has depended so one-sidedly on their logic that their feeling is starving..
    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Or, how about we put it a bit differently. You have an image of the world, which is probably science based. This image of "everything" cannot be articulated. The same goes for a feeler. You would have to put the picture into smaller pieces that you can articulate, still the big picture is in your mind. It is a reality. In the same way I can say that I have a code that works universally for everything I see. Difference between you and me is in preferences. I would rate moral values higher and they would definitely be big parts of my picture, while you could have some scientific theories up there. This difference does not mean that my pieces are less efficiently organized. They have logic in them, because they are related. Check this, I try to give some example of the relation of my values:

    - "People should be respected"

    - "Do good things and don't do bad things"

    Now, these seem simple. But what if someone is mean to me or to someone else? Should I respect him? For this there has to be another, more specific rule.

    - "Stopping bad people is a good deed"

    Now the two values do not contradict, but since "bad people" is vague term, it needs more to it. So, I have all kinds of "small principles" for specific situations.

    - "People cannot be changed"
    - "Good people should be defended"
    - "Bad people are to be pitied"
    - "Trying is not doing"
    - "Forgive"
    etc

    Now, they start to make sense as a big picture and I have my code for nearly all situations. It does make sense to me and if it doesn't, I will feel bad. When I have failed to obey my code, I feel like shit. And I should add that this code is also based on logic. If there's a theory that I accept as part of my values, it becomes integrated. The thing is, I don't do this if I don't "believe" in it. The logic supports the feeling in my case. All of the rules can be logically defended if needed. Their overall function is to make the world at least a bit more friendly place. If there is a theory that contradicts, it will be abandoned, even if it is "true", since it doesn't have the objective I have. Is this not logical? I can't have my principles taking me to different directions.
    I think that covered it pretty well, I don't feel any need to add anything. It feels pretty pointless to post just to quote other people, but hey I can do that.
    Muahahaa..

    Besides all in all making mistakes and sometimes crewing things up is only humane. We aren't perfect, what even is?

  2. #152
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    My values system tells me that nothing - nothing - is more important than human health.

    You can build an empire and make it run like clockwork but if the population is physically or emotionally unsound it will collapse in human pain and chaos.

    Edit: This is what is currently what is happening in the US. And I maintain that it is human negative qualities which is the cause.

    Oddly enough, someone once named them The Seven Deadly Sins. Funny to me how accurate that assessment of things to avoid is.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #153
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    Woah. Bluewing coming at us hard. I don't think I complete appreciate it...lol

    Of course we could all be NT's and the world would be a miserable bitter place :p
    And none of us would care.
    Can we officially retire this argument to metaphorical stud?
    we fukin won boys

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser;274364[B
    ]The whole first post is full of subjectivity. [/B]It operates under the assumption that thinking is the ultimate good, and therefore feeling is the ultimate evil. Since this assumption is so radically subjective, then all "logical" conclusions that come from it are also radically subjective.
    +100

  5. #155
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The question I invite you to explore is whether or not NFs truly have fulfilled their causes. Or in other words, are their endeavors truly worthwhile?

    First of all we should define the matter of the situation as clearly as possible.

    What kind of causes do NFs tend to fight for? In literature they are portrayed as fighters for the happiness of society, the common good, and the welfare of the individual.

    Some examples of those would certainly be Buddha, Jesus and Ghandi.

    We know for sure that this is what the NFs are portrayed as fighters of. But was this really the case?

    In order to truly know this we must psychologize those heroes to see what they were thinking.

    A first step to this would be attempting to discover how an NF's mind works, granted of course that the NF is a pure type.

    They are first and foremost concerned with collecting abstract perceptions of the environment and then making value judgments about those perceptions.

    Both of these are amorphous, as few would find it hard to agree that Feeling is not nearly as neatly organized as thinking. It is moosh.

    Intuition is simply pure abstract perception. From this it seems we are in the position to adduce that the NFs are unlikely to have a clear view of the causes they were fighting for.

    To answer the earlier question, were the causes they truly stood for as magnanimous as we think they were. We do not know. Neither do they. Unless of course those NFs were exceptionally gifted at the use of their inferior or tertiary Thinking faculty, which is highly doubtful.

    What else do we know about Feeling? That it tends to dramatize? Prone to wishful thinking? It seems far more likely that the causes appear magnanimous because NFs and their followers have romanticized them.

    The truth is they were confused individuals driven by blind and amorphous forces of passion who made such great noise of their endeavors because they sought approbation from others. Much akin to a typical drama queen. All of us who operate almost exclusively on emotion will obviously seek affirmation for our passions and will clamor at great length to receive the approval we seek. This is clearly descriptive of the NF stereotype. And certainly the heroes of history such as those listed above were very reminiscent of the NF stereotype.

    In the end, no they have not fulfilled their causes because they did not know what their causes were. Because their modus operandi and message were highly emotional and had little respect for the truth their life and quest were distorted. As a result we have many stories concerning how they fulfilled this or that romantic mission without having a clear idea of what this mission is, much of which has been fabricated altogether by their followers who eulogize them without respite. They are but prey to urban legend for us to exercise our imagination upon, their statures have degenerated into an empty vessel for us to fill in with whatever may serve our purpose. This is why we have many different sects who profess to be followers of Jesus who all have radically different views of who he was and what he taught. This has gone on until Emperor Constantine exacted pogroms of those who disagreed with his view of that man's teaching. Same could be said for Muhammad, Buddha, Ghandi or any other leader who has been purported to have shown us the path to virtue.

    All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery. They will later be used as an instrument to promote a political agenda of this or that delegation. The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes.

    We ought to stop trying to turn Earth into heaven, as we have only succeeded in turning it into hell. NFs ought to stop acting out on their Feelings, no matter how strongly they feel they are doing a good thing. Not only will the vision likely be confusing and inapplicable to the real world, but also being driven by emotion will also lead to a confusing mindset. As obviously emotions do not give us a clear perspective, one distinct example of this is the aforementioned need for approbation such a mindset leads to. This alone suggests that such a hero was driven by unworthy motives. Thirdly, this opens the door for charlatans to take advantage of the cause in any way they see fit.

    If we truly have serious intentions about making the world a better place we ought to stop and think, organize our mindset into something coherent and then see how this could be implemented to the external world. It should be founded upon a clear-cut rationale concerning making the world a better place, not torrential passions.
    What a ridiculous hatchet-job. It is humorous, though, because in fact subjective beliefs are at the root of all motivation and interpretation, something Karl Popper, from whom your "We ought to stop trying to turn Earth into heaven, as we have only succeeded in turning it into hell." line came from, understood well. We hold to these deeply-rooted subjective beliefs irrationally because the alternative is solipsism and nihilism. The awareness, however dim, that these beliefs are irrational leads to attempts to rationalize those beliefs. such rationalizing is psychologically unavoidable, there is no such thing as a truly objective ethics and woldview, all are rationalizations of irrationally held subjective beliefs, claiming that one's ethical views and worlview is objective is nothing but a form of denial.

    Yet society must function, in spite of differing beliefs. We all know what horrors and atrocities occur when one belief system is given special sanction and privilege, and thus things must be such that one belief system cannot be allowed unlimited power, no matter how popular it is. But how do we get along well enough to reach compromise and consensus? That is where *GASP* Fe comes in, allowing understanding of other's opinions even in disagreement and looking for areas of shared values where agreement can be found.
    Autistic INFP


  6. #156
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    That is simply false. Most groups of scholars have arrived at an objective conclusions about the teaching of Plato, Aristotle, Spinoza, Einstein..etc...and in almost all universities you go to, there is a convention for what should be taught to students as ideas of these men.

    This is because they stated their views in clear and objective terms and not in random bursts of passion.

    And I have further edited my post.
    More often than not such "objective" conclusions are not objective at all, but are instead a consensus of subjective conclusions
    Autistic INFP


  7. #157
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    There would be a lot less of this problem if those people founded their claims on dispassionate, logically consistent reasoning rather than blind, amorphous passions run amuck.
    But, that is psychologically impossible, as I stated above. All meaningful claims are either subjective or have underlying subjective assumptions.
    Autistic INFP


  8. #158
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Haha.

    I don't care to get involved in this but let's just say that trying
    to understand spirituality and emotion from an INTP standpoint can only fail.
    For that you should have at least some Ni or Fi, INTPs lack both.

    "Mystics can understand scientists, but scientists can never understand mystics."
    Meh, I'm both an atheist and a "spiritual" person, something that drives both religious people and NT and ST nonbelievers crazy!
    Autistic INFP


  9. #159
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    1. being a feeler does not mean you make all your decisions in the heart of emotional turmoil. all it means, is that you make VALUE BASED DECISIONS. THEY CAN STILL BE RATIONAL AND STAND ON THEIR OWN AS MUCH AS 2 + 2 = 4: altruism, nurturing, forgiveness, not trying to fuck everyone over that you deal with in business just because you can. value based decisions can be still rational and/or irrational in the way 2 + 2 can equal 5 and 2 + 2 cannot equal 6.

    just because some idiot over in isheeevamedrawewrs islama land has made an irrational use of value based judgements does not mean that feeling is inherently an irrational function. "logic" Te, Se... hell, "any function users" can be just as bad at creating horrible logic to justify some terrible idea or justice.




    2.
    "All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery. They will later be used as an instrument to promote a political agenda of this or that delegation. The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes."

    Just because some OTHER idiot misuses the original texts or drives a cause beyond where its original intent was, does not indict the ORIGINAL MOVEMENT:

    example: there is very little biblical basis for most of what the catholic church does administratively and powers of their ritual. Therefore i would say it is wrong to blame jesus for THEIR screw ups. The crusades were fought by mostly non christian and was more of a cultural war. the crusader armies even sacked european cities just for the pilage (indicative of their true motives in joining the crusades). there is a huge and obvious difference between accusing the neighbor widow of killing your cow and actaul demonic happenings (the witch trials are another horrible way to "crucify" christianity).

    3. we live in a very dumb world. the average IQ is actually SCARY when you think about what kind of intellect the avg person is working with. I would argue that if everyone were a "T" trying to be "logical" all the time with over half the pop with less than a 100 IQ, we'd actually be more likely to get these crazy ideologies you attribute to F's because they would find scary ways to "logically" justify suppressed feelings.

    4. I would argue that more world evils are committed by T people like yourself, who suppress and then justify their weak value judgment faculties with their overly trusted logical rationalizing of what they do....

    5.
    the real problem is not that people make value judgments. the problem is when people think they can rationalize EVERYTHING. and so rather than analyze how these value judgments affect people, they just spend time devising what sounds the most logical:
    example evidence: EUGENICS. eugenics actaully logically makes a TON of LOGICAL sense for the human race. round up every fat perosn, every AIDS patient, every retard, every Bi polar and euthanize them. The best genes will continue on for the best of the human race.

    eugenics is my best example for what a world of T's without value judgments would look like....
    DING DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!!!

    It's Fe and Fi that keeps us from the cold, cruel insanities of Eugenics and from folks like Peter "I like infanticide" Singer.
    Autistic INFP


  10. #160
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    "All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery."

    If the content of your reason is not ultimately (and always) the appreciation of the unique value of each of us, it will not be "reason" at all, but a strange cult dedicated to the denial of other human beings their inner worth. Introverted feeling is the recognition of worth. It is the capital that money measures. Extroverted feeling is the foundation of diplomatic alliance. F(e) is the content of strategic logic. It is the substance of realpolitik.

    F(i) is the following:

    Fi (Introverted Feeling):


    Essence Reading: Fi is considering importance and worth. It allows one to decide if something is of significance and worth standing up for. It serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. It helps Fi types know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

    Moral Compass: Fi is clarifying values to achieve accord. Fi types have high personal moral standards and are particularly sensitive to inconsistencies in their environment between what is being said and what is being done. Empty promises of adhering to something they value set off an inner alarm and they may transform themselves into a powerful crusading force.

    Empathy: Fi types are usually gentile and kind. They are sensitive to others’ pain, restlessness or general discomfort and strive to find happiness, balance and wholeness for themselves in order to help others find joy, satisfaction and plenitude. They are deeply empathetic, and they are usually tolerant and open-minded, insightful, flexible and understanding. They have good listening skills, are genuinely concerned and insightful. At their best, they inspire others to be themselves. These types focus on the good in others, so they tend to downplay others faults, often forgiving them for the slights of minor hurtful behavior. Their habitual approach to people is nonjudgmental, understanding and forgiving. They seek to affirm all parties in a controversy and thus readily the validity of contradictory points of view. Underlying their characteristic tolerance is an overarching natural curiosity. They find the diversity in the world immensely appealing.

    Devotion: Intense and passionate about their values and deeply held beliefs. They are quietly persistent in raising awareness of cherished causes and often fight for the underdog in quiet or not-so-quiet ways.

    Idealism: They live life in an intently personal fashion, acting on the belief that each persona is unique and that social norms are to be respected only if they do not hinder personal development or expression. Moral choices prompted by the Fi types are not derived from legal principles or the social obligations that accrue to our roles in the world. They’re derived from the subjective experience of being human, our will to deal with a situation in terms of human ideal. Fi bypasses structural considerations and puts human value first. They place a high value on affirming both their own and others’ individuality and uniqueness."
    -----------------
    Now lets look at an example of NF reasoning.
    F(i) is the moral principle of reciprocity. Presented as cold logic, it is akin to the Kantian categorical imperative. It is dispassion and repose.
    Look at this statement and tell me if it is T(i) or T (e) or F (e) or F(i): "It is foolishness and endless trouble to throw a stone at every dog that barks at you."

    Surely, that it is a synthetic proposition. It is not true by definition. So it is not T(i).
    Furthermore, it is a statement that is not categorical, but hypothetical. As T(e) is the application of a single standard to all, and this statement implies that our responses to threats should be forbearing rather than categorical standard protocol.

    A deeper look reveals that this statement is abstract and tolemetic. Therefore, it is statement of an intuitive introvert. (The stones and dogs are placeholders for something else - namely people and their efforts at discharging anger, stated in a cagey N(i) manner.)

    So it is not T(i) nor T(e) and it is N(i), so then is it NF(e) or NF(i)? In answer it is N(i)+F(e). Here is the quote from the cognitive processes page at the ENFPforum.com

    Fe is "Social Awareness: Fe is conceptual and analytic. It encourages us to make rational choices, to measure our options for relationship against external standards of behaviors. [Customs] Fe prompts in this regard are not a matter of emotion, impulse, or doing what we learned in kindergarten. These are secular rituals—visible signs that mark a participant’s membership in the community at large. Such rituals can touch us, but they are not occasions of sentiment. They’re a vocabulary, part of our feeling lexicon. They submit to collective form an experience ordinarily confined to individual history, allowing us to express the kinds of relationships important to us as people. Social values mark these wares of decision making that go beyond one person’s immediate experience to affect the community as a whole. Apart from questions of moral rectitude, our behaviors toward others have implications, whether we intend them or not. Fe types seek continuity through harmonious relationships and collective values. They excel at picking up on the tone of a situation and acting accordingly, adding warmth to a cool setting or turning sour into sweet."

    I think I would like a world with more NF crusaders. "It is foolishness and endless trouble to throw stones at every dog that barks at you." Yes indeed.
    The MBTI types me as an INFP, however, SOCIONICS calls me an Logical Intuitive Extram (called an ENTj in our terms.)

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