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  1. #141
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    BlueWing uses too many exclamation points in his posts!

    Also, as a Feeler, I'd like to say that BlueWing needs to be F'ed.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    yeah, but focusing on something else is essentially putting a band-aid on the problem (aka repression).

    if you spent your thinking energy on the actual emotional problem at hand; if you broke it down into a framework and made perfect sense out of it, you'd be much less likely to be surprised by it later. you wouldn't risk projecting or displacing anger (as much), nor would you find yourself as anxious or annoyed.

    you said 3 solid days of study solved the problem. and of course, i'm sure a bunch of emotional processing went on behind the scenes. but what if you spent just a few hours at the beginning doing emotional processing (with your T and F)? you'd have the problem solved instead of hidden, and you'd feel much better, probably making your studying more efficient. you'd probably get more done in the long run anyways.

    i guess i can't prove what i'm saying (without running some sort of test), but i think you get what i mean.



    thinking does NOT give us a clear perspective of what we should do with our lives. we need to make sure to check with feeling (all the time) to plan effectively. if the point of life is personal happiness maximization (do you agree??), we need F value judgments as the premises for our T conclusions. if we start from a premise that F thinks is "bad", we will certainly not plan effectively.



    but consciously getting yourself to focus more on emotion is F by definition. someone who doesn't "have enough interest in emotion to analyze it" must use F more to bring value judgments to consciousness.

    I can see a thinker pushing an emotional issue underground to cope with it, when I've been faced with tough T decisions at times the best course was to "forget" it for a time and the solution welled up from the depths when I least expected it.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yeah, like I said. I'm trying to give BW the benefit of the doubt here because there is a reasonable point beneath some of that hyperbole. And because he gets a lot of flak here. Not that he doesn't invite it upon himself with said invective, but if it turns out to be his way to blow off steam I don't mind sorting through it for the kernels of truth.

    At least, I don't mind it today. I am a fickle F after all, I might mind it tomorrow.
    YOU? An F????

  4. #144
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    Thoughts can be explained in words, but feelings cannot.

    Even if you are the purely logical person as you claim to be, you will experience those 4 emotions at some stage in your life.

    Even now, i think logic is subjective, What seems logical to one person may seems illogical to another person.
    Yeah. Totally. I was thinking about that the other day....like how can you ever be totally objective? I don't think you can.

  5. #145
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    YOU? An F????
    Surprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    Yeah. Totally. I was thinking about that the other day....like how can you ever be totally objective? I don't think you can.
    I don't think you can, either, but I think objective truth exists, and we can certainly try to figure out what it is. It is important to remember that we all have our own lenses that distort truth to whatever degree.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #146
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    yeah, but focusing on something else is essentially putting a band-aid on the problem (aka repression)..
    No, no. Your whole psychological mindset changes as your passions become neutralized. Focus on dispassionate endeavors is therapeutic in this regard. Not all passions will neutralized.

    If you were dispassionate for long enough, you will go back to think about the things that have bothered you, but the negative emotive energy will no longer be present as it is focused on something else.









    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    but consciously getting yourself to focus more on emotion is F by definition. someone who doesn't "have enough interest in emotion to analyze it" must use F more to bring value judgments to consciousness.
    Granted. Thought it is more efficient to analyze your emotions after they were tamed, not before. As you shall meet less resistance this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Granted, but this does not mean the true account has been lost, neither does it mean the true account cannot be known. ..
    Its too sticky of a mess for us to be getting into. We just know too little about that situation.



    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    This is not the thread to argue for the clarity of general revelation or the perspicuity of scripture--but I'm willing to discuss these if you are. As for following Jesus blindly, I assure you, that is nowhere in the Bible...
    What about the lines where it says 'You must become like a child or you will not enter heaven! Whoever does not accept me will not come to my father!"





    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I'm no fideist, and I think you've given some good reasons why no one should be--although I think they could be strengthened. But what about skepticism? Why should I think that being rational will help me lead the good life?
    You should not be an epistemic skeptic because you presuppose possibility of epistemic objectivity by expecting me to receive the message you're communicating. That it is true is enough of a reason to accept it.

    Does it also lead to a better life?

    Yes

    Being rational allows you to understand the real world and figure out how to deal with it. You will make less mistakes this way.

    It is also therapeutic in the regard that it allows you to accept circumstances for what they are instead of engaging in wishful thinking. This generates a sense of calm and peace with the situation that has befallen you. In this regard such an experience is profoundly 'spiritual' as has been championed by Spinoza.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #147
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Surprised?



    I don't think you can, either, but I think objective truth exists, and we can certainly try to figure out what it is. It is important to remember that we all have our own lenses that distort truth to whatever degree.
    Yeah, I was surprised.

    And yeah I agree, there is an objective truth that we can try to figure out. And it is important to remember that we have our own lenses.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes, that is correct. Which is why you will never meet NF people as 'out there' as I have described them. Even the craziest of NFs had some kind of Thinking in them and usually enough to avoid running amuck with their Feelings. Yet, unfortunately too many of them had too little Thinking in them and championed very unreasonable values and visions.

    Then why create your arguement in hyperbole?


    That is clearly so. Nothing in the world is random. By random I meant, emotions do not bear a logical relation to each other. For example, an overly emotional person may have emotions of guilt, anxiety, ecstasy, whatever, triggered by a refrigerator. There is no direct logical relationship between the refrigerator and such feelings. But the reason they turn out to have such feelings triggered is because their refrigerator reminded them of some scary event in their lives. They may even consciously assert that the refrigerator is evil. A logical person would see that there is no connection between the two.

    You're refrigerator analogy is once again an extreme that doesn't accurately depict emotional triggers. There is logic behind why certain emotions come from certain triggers, and i'll give Realistic examples: You cheat on your wife, you have the feeling of shame. You get fired from work, you have the feeling of anger. You get a promotion at work, you feel accomplished. You are on your way to Six Flags, you feel excited. There is a logical connection between these things, you cannot argue against that. Yes, once in a blue moon, an emotional person will have feelings that seem to be illogical, but the majority of the time it is not that way.


    Many of the N dominated NFs I have met, especially INFJs seemed practically insane to me. Historical case in point, INFJ Dostoevsky persuades the ignorant Russian peasant folk that their country has been chosen by God to be the new Israel! This is why God put Mother Russian through this much suffering, he is putting her to test only to be rewarded for her faithfulness later on! This led to rabid worship of Russian soil which had almost no bearing upon reality and seemed to be wholly a concoction of his imagination.

    Pure anecdote as you would put it


    Noone thought that he was God's son, however or that whoever rejects his teaching shall be commited to the flames for eternity. There clearly was less passion involved here than with the NF leaders, and his teaching was more clearly presented, so more difficult for charlatans to exploit.
    Woah woah woah, completely different situation. You're essentially trying to tie NFs to Religion and NTs to Science, which isn't necessarily the case. Remember, religion itself is spurred from the absense of the Scientific Method whilst having the desire to understand the Universe. NTs were likely the ones to take advantage of religion and exploiting its followers, they thought it to be a very logical thing to do


    Truth is absolute. Either my car is white or not white. Either John took my shoes or he did not. Our knowledge may not be absolute as we could have made many errors in our attempt to understand what the truth is.
    Truth is completely dependent on the context and one's perception. Your car isn't either white or not white if you are blind, eh?


    Strawman fallacy would be if I misrepresented my opponent's case.

    For example, John says my car runs fast because it has an engine from 2005 by GM.

    If I respond, oh your engine is from GM, that is why it runs fast?

    That'd be a strawman as I am misrepresenting what he said to make his case seem weaker.

    You created a distorted view of the NF so that it was easier to attack: strawman fallacy. Maybe you don't see that making your entire argument off of hyperbole/biased sample (biased sample meaning only pointing out situations where the NF is at his/her worst) is a strawman, but to me it seems so, the nature of it is very similar to the strawmen that Creationists make when i'm debating them.


    Proof by assertion? That would be if I said this is just the way it is, and I refuse to explain why it is this way.

    Okay, just to refresh your memory, here is what my response was to: "they were confused individuals driven by blind and amorphous forces of passion who made such great noise of their endeavors because they sought approbation from others. Much akin to a typical drama queen. All of us who operate almost exclusively on emotion will obviously seek affirmation for our passions and will clamor at great length to receive the approval we seek."

    What I meant by Proof by Assertion is that you gave us no reason to believe that these historical figures behaved like this other than the fact that they were NFs. If you were to give us biographical information about these people that proved they behaved like this then I would not have declared proof by assertion.


    That is irrelevant bibliographical information.
    It is completely relevant! Here was your quote that I responded to: "This is why we have many different sects who profess to be followers of Jesus who all have radically different views of who he was and what he taught."

    The core Cause of why Jesus' followers had different views of who he was and what he taught is Not that he was an NF. What I did was present information that is much stronger evidence to why Jesus's teachings have been interpreted in different ways. Jesus's Correlation with being an NF does not necessarily mean that it is the Cause of his followers' confusion over his teachings, I had shown why it is untrue to say that it him being NF is the cause of the confusion.


    ----------------------------------------------------

    Well I hope I cleared some of that up for you.

  9. #149
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No, no. Your whole psychological mindset changes as your passions become neutralized. Focus on dispassionate endeavors is therapeutic in this regard. Not all passions will neutralized.

    If you were dispassionate for long enough, you will go back to think about the things that have bothered you, but the negative emotive energy will no longer be present as it is focused on something else.
    eh. doesn't really work that way with trauma.

    actually, my observation is it doesn't work that way at all.

    there is no such thing as neutralizing your passions. you can suppress or repress or project or displace or whatever.

    think about it this way: you have this emotion, it's in your conscious awareness, and it's overwhelming. it takes constant processing power to pull it out of your consciousness. and once it's in the background, energy is needed to keep it there. it's like holding a balloon underwater. if you want to, you can keep it underwater as you're going about your day. but if you need both hands, it's gonna come to the surface. so you can only use one hand as long as you aren't processing it.

    to make the metaphor better, imagine the balloon slowly shrinking to nothingness depending on the severity of the emotion. extreme trauma might never shrink, death of a grandparent might take a month or two, getting a bad grade may take a day or two.

    Granted. Thought it is more efficient to analyze your emotions after they were tamed, not before. As you shall meet less resistance this way.
    you'll meet less resistance at the time you choose to process it, yes. but until that time, you'll be a little bit slower (remember, some of your total processing power is being used to hold the emotion down), and that could easily outweigh the negative you'd feel if you brought it to the surface.

    essentially, you have to figure out the optimal time to process. too early, and it will be too overwhelming -- too late, and you'll have wasted a bunch of time feeling like shit and not understanding why.

  10. #150
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    I fight for no causes, I join no groups, and I tend not to conform...but I do have friends, if you're rude enough to judge me as a loser, or something..but I guess that's just because I'm introverted? or maybe just because I'm a non conformist. who can tell? That's just me!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

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