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  1. #131
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Awww c'mon, he loves the flak. It's like he wants a Panzer tank to roll him over - he's begging for it!!!!!!!!!!!!! He wants someone to come down with an AK47 and just blow a million holes into his argument.

    But honestly, I'm too lazy to do it.
    I don't know about that, actually. There are several possibilities for what BW wants to get out of this and he's the only one who can say for sure which one is correct. Maybe he's very dryly "kidding on the square" and trusts us to figure out how much of what he says is tongue-in-cheek and sort that out from the serious parts.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Sooner or later they will wear out on their own, but this seems to be a long and inefficient route. Why do that when you can focus your emotive energy onto something much more constructive. As for example, what works for me is delving into hard-core Thinking material. This puts me into an emotionally neutral mode and substantially lessens the grief in a short period of time. I remember I was bothered by something intensely for 2 good weeks at least, yet after 3 days of solid studies, it was nowhere near as significant.
    Aha, ok, now I think I'm getting closer to understand your view. You distract your consciousness to concentrate on matters so that you will forget about the emotions. Sorry for turning into analyzing you, but this is relevant for me, since I can't understand your view if I don't understand where you are coming from.

    If you concentrated on the emotions at the point you tend to look away, what would you find? Have you considered that a truth worth finding out? The bonus that comes from studying your emotions is that you get to know them better and control them, as you see them coming. They will not look like something that comes and goes whenever they want to. They seem this way because they are shoved into unconsciousness. I'd say it is very constructive to make sure you are open to the world, as this is ultimately the way to make you get the most objective view possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You work through value judgments through rational analysis of emotion. Everybody processes emotion, this is inevitable. A hardcore thinker however may not have enough interest in emotion to analyze it. He does not need to indulge in his emotive appetites more to do this. He just needs to get himself to focus on emotional aspects of his life.
    I agree with you on this. And don't get me wrong, I didn't mean that analyzing emotions should be based on Feeling judgment. There is very much to be done by logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Nothing in the world is random. By random I meant, emotions do not bear a logical relation to each other. For example, an overly emotional person may have emotions of guilt, anxiety, ecstasy, whatever, triggered by a refrigerator. There is no direct logical relationship between the refrigerator and such feelings. But the reason they turn out to have such feelings triggered is because their refrigerator reminded them of some scary event in their lives. They may even consciously assert that the refrigerator is evil. A logical person would see that there is no connection between the two.
    Here we differ in views. It seems to me like you are describing this to be "normal" phenomenon for a feeler. It isn't. This is an unhealthy person, who has not really accepted the emotions. The feeling attached to the fridge is coming from the unconscious. If he had taken time to analyze his feelings, he would have made them more conscious and disconnected them from the refrigerator. A logical person cannot escape his unconsciousness any more than the emotional. But, if the logical person has allowed his emotional side to develop to a healthy state, it will manifest it's view in a more healthy way. So, if someone is afraid of his fridge, he should try to figure out where the feeling is coming from and what the fridge symbolizes. After he found a memory of the evil behind the fridge, he can rationalize the situation and neutralize the effect of that memory.

    In my opinion this is the only way fighting emotions. You must break them from inside, not deny them. But, really, I do think that you are on the way to this, since you have such an interest in emotions. You would just have to take that time to expose yourself to them and see what they do. There is no reason why not do this. Only thing you can lose is some time, and the thing you can win is better understanding. It isn't that bad a deal.

    Ps. I'd like to point out that your stance to emotions and feeling judgment is opposite of the way I see it. You seem to think that the less you have F, the less you have emotions. I understood that emotions are not exactly connected to feeling judgment. If you gain F-judgment, it will not increase the amount of emotions.

  3. #133
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    That depends from what account we derive our idea of who Jesus was from!
    Granted, but this does not mean the true account has been lost, neither does it mean the true account cannot be known. Before you conclude Jesus' actions were motivated by vulgar motives, I would suggest you construct a tighter argument to support such a conclusion than any which may be formed from the content in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    It is not even clear what Jesus understood for God to be. And many of his actions, especially when he preaches like 'those who do not agree with me will burn in Hell! I tell you the truth, noone comes to the father if he does not lessen himself to a child's attitude and believes me blindly!' In a nutshell was what he was saying. I doubt I need to cite where in scripture he said this, its all too notorious by now. Seems to be here he is more concerned with being accepted by men than the Guy who sits up in the clouds watching him.
    This is not the thread to argue for the clarity of general revelation or the perspicuity of scripture--but I'm willing to discuss these if you are. As for following Jesus blindly, I assure you, that is nowhere in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If you declare faith more important than truth, you certainly have some barriers to jump over in your quest to attain intellectual integrity. You will never be an honest fideist, or be able to seperate your intellectual convictions from your religious, there will be a crippling cognitive dissonance which will force you to become a theistic rationalist and in effect succumb to the problem I have outlined above concerning intellectual integrity.
    I'm no fideist, and I think you've given some good reasons why no one should be--although I think they could be strengthened. But what about skepticism? Why should I think that being rational will help me lead the good life?

  4. #134
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Sooner or later they will wear out on their own, but this seems to be a long and inefficient route. Why do that when you can focus your emotive energy onto something much more constructive. As for example, what works for me is delving into hard-core Thinking material. This puts me into an emotionally neutral mode and substantially lessens the grief in a short period of time. I remember I was bothered by something intensely for 2 good weeks at least, yet after 3 days of solid studies, it was nowhere near as significant.
    yeah, but focusing on something else is essentially putting a band-aid on the problem (aka repression).

    if you spent your thinking energy on the actual emotional problem at hand; if you broke it down into a framework and made perfect sense out of it, you'd be much less likely to be surprised by it later. you wouldn't risk projecting or displacing anger (as much), nor would you find yourself as anxious or annoyed.

    you said 3 solid days of study solved the problem. and of course, i'm sure a bunch of emotional processing went on behind the scenes. but what if you spent just a few hours at the beginning doing emotional processing (with your T and F)? you'd have the problem solved instead of hidden, and you'd feel much better, probably making your studying more efficient. you'd probably get more done in the long run anyways.

    i guess i can't prove what i'm saying (without running some sort of test), but i think you get what i mean.

    We are on the same page. I believe that Thinking should be in the drivers seat and Feeling in the backseat because Thinking gives us a clear perspective of what we should do with our lives.
    thinking does NOT give us a clear perspective of what we should do with our lives. we need to make sure to check with feeling (all the time) to plan effectively. if the point of life is personal happiness maximization (do you agree??), we need F value judgments as the premises for our T conclusions. if we start from a premise that F thinks is "bad", we will certainly not plan effectively.

    You work through value judgments through rational analysis of emotion. Everybody processes emotion, this is inevitable. A hardcore thinker however may not have enough interest in emotion to analyze it. He does not need to indulge in his emotive appetites more to do this. He just needs to get himself to focus on emotional aspects of his life.
    but consciously getting yourself to focus more on emotion is F by definition. someone who doesn't "have enough interest in emotion to analyze it" must use F more to bring value judgments to consciousness.

  5. #135
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    yeah, but focusing on something else is essentially putting a band-aid on the problem (aka repression).

    if you spent your thinking energy on the actual emotional problem at hand; if you broke it down into a framework and made perfect sense out of it, you'd be much less likely to be surprised by it later. you wouldn't risk projecting or displacing anger (as much), nor would you find yourself as anxious or annoyed.

    you said 3 solid days of study solved the problem. and of course, i'm sure a bunch of emotional processing went on behind the scenes. but what if you spent just a few hours at the beginning doing emotional processing (with your T and F)? you'd have the problem solved instead of hidden, and you'd feel much better, probably making your studying more efficient. you'd probably get more done in the long run anyways.

    i guess i can't prove what i'm saying (without running some sort of test), but i think you get what i mean.
    Do bandaids not assist with healing?

    As much as I don't like much of what this guy says, I'm going to have to agree on one point. Most Ts, particularly the younger ones, need distance to deal with their problems. Immediate emotional processing usually just ends up with them just sitting back and watching things fester instead of actually doing anything.

    Three straight days of studying might have created that distance needed. However, they usually forget two important things -- when to stop creating distance (because if you make too much, you just end up trying to bury the problem), and that there's still work to be done after the distancing (pretending the problem's solved, when it's not.). Good thing there are usually some Fs around to pry them out of this, though.

    So... yes. Ts need their distance, but they can't run away entirely. Distance, though, prevents them from doing things that are really dumb and would hurt themselves and/or others.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #136
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    So, the gist of what BlueWing is saying seems to be that NF causes are so vague and passion-based that they only prove in the end to be detrimental instruments of deception and destruction.

    I don't agree. While it is true that many of ideals similar to those of NFs are used to appeal to people in the process of extortion in some cases, I think this is simply a skill in understanding the subconscious ideals of human beings in general that makes them successful. They use this skill to promote their agenda, and it doesn't matter whether the NFs provide them with the ideas, or the extortionists derive their own. Ideals of beauty and dreams can always be used either for extortion, or as an impetus to improvement. They are simply tools, like anything else. They work because of the general similarity in structure of mind, emotion, and perception in human beings.

    This part is more conjecture, but I would go so far as to say that NTs are idealists themselves, but of a much colder variety. They simply have a need for things to make sense and work properly in accordance with a particular understanding or end, rather than a need for beauty, meaning, and perfection. Considering human nature, is vigorously promoting that people do things that make logical sense a form of realism, or idealism? And if you think about it, all logic can be unraveled by a few questions... why is the end what is most important? Why should everything accord with any particular end? Why must things be consistent with themselves or work according to particular rules? In fact, it isn't necessary... except that the mind needs them to do so in order to cope most effectively in relation to it's perceptions, goals, and attempts to derive information.

  7. #137
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Do bandaids not assist with healing?

    As much as I don't like much of what this guy says, I'm going to have to agree on one point. Most Ts, particularly the younger ones, need distance to deal with their problems. Immediate emotional processing usually just ends up with them just sitting back and watching things fester instead of actually doing anything.

    Three straight days of studying might have created that distance needed. However, they usually forget two important things -- when to stop creating distance (because if you make too much, you just end up trying to bury the problem), and that there's still work to be done after the distancing (pretending the problem's solved, when it's not.). Good thing there are usually some Fs around to pry them out of this, though.

    So... yes. Ts need their distance, but they can't run away entirely. It prevents them from doing things that are really dumb and would hurt themselves and/or others.
    i didn't mean you should always process emotion right away. i definitely try to wait until i calm down before doing any sort of processing, which may take days to weeks.

    my point is more that the emotion has to be consciously processed. if you just let it sit there and focus on studies, it'll find its way out somehow (which you said).

  8. #138
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i didn't mean you should always process emotion right away. i definitely try to wait until i calm down before doing any sort of processing, which may take days to weeks.

    my point is more that the emotion has to be consciously processed. if you just let it sit there and focus on studies, it'll find its way out somehow (which you said).
    And here I thought you were one of these FJs who were going to go, "Hurry up! Talk it over! now now now now now!" There seems to be a lot of those... and they all seem to flock to me.

    Immediacy is not always a good thing. And this is coming from one of them hasty INTJs.

    *shrug*
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    And here I thought you were one of these FJs who were going to go, "Hurry up! Talk it over! now now now now now!" There seems to be a lot of those... and they all seem to flock to me.
    Talking things over is more of an extrovert thing. At least for me it is too damn much. I need to go through it myself (first).

  10. #140
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Thoughts can be explained in words, but feelings cannot.

    Even if you are the purely logical person as you claim to be, you will experience those 4 emotions at some stage in your life.

    Even now, i think logic is subjective, What seems logical to one person may seems illogical to another person.

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