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  1. #111
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    Yes please. Fallacy is an error in reasoning. You need to study formal logic to make sure you know what this term means in the vernacular.
    Unfortunately I haven't studied formal logic because my honors humanities teacher only explained Ad homineum at the end of the year, which I had already known about way beforehand. However I can't refuse the offer so I must try, if I make a mistake or two its all part of the learning process eh?

    Its okay my friend. When I was your age I too used to get mad at that kind of a thing too. I tried to find reasons to believe that the not so flattering ideas about people that I hold now (perhaps not as sophisticated and thorough) were false. As I aged, I realized this was a futile endeavor. Hey, give it another 5 years...you'll be closer to my views in attitude at least.

    You seem to be way ahead of me actually. Even at 19 when I just joined INTPc I wrote a long post countering Hustler's proclamation that INTP is the superior type to all. And during his NF purge on INTPc I tried to help the oppressed. Meh...eventually I was forced to admit that he was right all along. I was just trying to give myself excuses to dream. (You seem to be doing what I did at 19 at 16...you're getting yourself on the path to beating this out of your system earlier!)

    I love the youthful vigor and charity, very rare thing in the mutilated world we live in, especially for an INTP. I earnestly hope you could keep this up. But I doubt you will be able to. Its just too counter-intuitive! And the loss of faith in human goodness is an inevitable result of going out to the world to experience it directly.
    Honestly that not the response I was expecting. Tell ya what, if you turn out to be right, I'll send you a PM saying exactly that, "You were right."

    I'll do the fallacy thing on another post below

  2. #112
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post


    Its okay my friend. When I was your age I too used to get mad at that kind of a thing too. I tried to find reasons to believe that the not so flattering ideas about people that I hold now (perhaps not as sophisticated and thorough) were false. As I aged, I realized this was a futile endeavor. Hey, give it another 5 years...you'll be closer to my views in attitude at least.

    You seem to be way ahead of me actually. Even at 19 when I just joined INTPc I wrote a long post countering Hustler's proclamation that INTP is the superior type to all. And during his NF purge on INTPc I tried to help the oppressed. Meh...eventually I was forced to admit that he was right all along. I was just trying to give myself excuses to dream. (You seem to be doing what I did at 19 at 16...you're getting yourself on the path to beating this out of your system earlier!)

    I love the youthful vigor and charity, very rare thing in the mutilated world we live in, especially for an INTP. I earnestly hope you could keep this up. But I doubt you will be able to. Its just too counter-intuitive! And the loss of faith in human goodness is an inevitable result of going out to the world to experience it directly.
    I'm honestly surprised to see you take the tack of "Oh, I used to be just like you, so when you have the life experience that I have you'll think the same things." It seems a bit like an appeal to authority (age and experience being the basis of the authority). There are plenty of older INTPs who used to be like you are now, but have become more charitable as they age, but that doesn't mean you will. I can hope so, but I wouldn't necessarily say that they are further along on the same trajectory as you. Other INTPs (and other types) just get more and more disconnected as time goes by.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #113
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    ^That made me wonder
    How old are you BlueWing?

    Another thing that came into my mind:
    Are you just looking for getting some attention with your posts?
    Because you are certainly getting attention.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Emotions are like appetites, we all will be forced to indulge in them sooner or later. The main question is how to restrain them. That is the problem for all of us, even the most restrained by psychic constitution.
    If you are interested, the way to control emotions is to accept them. They will mellow out that way. Restrain is not the right way to control them, while it seems most straightforward. It is harder to take the punch.

  5. #115
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    Im more scared of the Terminator, than Barney or Mr. Rogers. LOL
    I don't think Mr. Rogers is an example of an NF without any T. He was utterly consistent for his entire life. I agree with BW that F must be balanced with T. It seems to me that he is saying that one needs more T than F, which is much more reasonable to me than saying F is worthless and T is awesome. I don't necessarily agree, but it would be an interesting discussion if we could leave behind the invective.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #116
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    All functions must balance each other.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    About restraining emotions...

    I myself feel no need to restrain my emotions, as trying to suppress them makes me feel ill, and the emotions themselves are surprisingly stable and - yes, I'm serious - logical. I consider my emotions as an important thing (one of them!, not the only one) when making decisions and am still called reasonable other people, even Ts. I have never been accused of being illogical or overly sentimental.

    The same thing applies to my ESFJ mother, who is most bearable when being led by value judgments and emotions, but when she tries to use T as the leading process she makes very weird conclusions.

    My ISTJ father, however, is a strong, rational T, and his emotions, when released, are very illogical and destructive if he doesn't control them. He says that he is afraid of them and thus needs to suppress them.

  8. #118
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We will never be lacking Feeling alright, even the most hardcore of Thinker will have enough F in them to achieve the results you speak of. Emotions are like appetites, we all will be forced to indulge in them sooner or later. The main question is how to restrain them. That is the problem for all of us, even the most restrained by psychic constitution.
    it takes well-developed feeling to consciously weigh how things are affecting you in a healthy way. a hardcore thinker is as likely to have underdeveloped feeling as a hardcore feeler is to have underdeveloped thinking. both would have extreme trouble in life

    the point of life is happiness-maximization in the long term. the people that do best both think clearly and feel clearly. without thinking, you can't effectively strategize, without feeling, your strategies don't match your goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    If you are interested, the way to control emotions is to accept them. They will mellow out that way. Restrain is not the right way to control them, while it seems most straightforward. It is harder to take the punch.
    yes.

    BW, you assume value judgments are to be restrained. i think value judgments need to be worked through and factored in. Feeling shouldn't be locked in the trunk -- Feeling should be in the passenger seat, having a constant conversation with Thinking (which should be the driver of the car, heh).

  9. #119
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think Mr. Rogers is an example of an NF without any T. He was utterly consistent for his entire life. I agree with BW that F must be balanced with T. It seems to me that he is saying that one needs more T than F, which is much more reasonable to me than saying F is worthless and T is awesome. I don't necessarily agree, but it would be an interesting discussion if we could leave behind the invective.
    Heh you almost make his argument sound reasonable. However if you use his words:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing
    We will never be lacking Feeling alright, even the most hardcore of Thinker will have enough F in them to achieve the results you speak of. Emotions are like appetites, we all will be forced to indulge in them sooner or later. The main question is how to restrain them. That is the problem for all of us, even the most restrained by psychic constitution.
    He's saying even most extreme thinker still has plenty of F. In fact even the most extreme thinker should learn to restrain their F even more. This is pretty much saying F is worthless and T is awesome. Ok, he's not saying F is totally worthless, he's saying it's almost totally worthless. I don't think the "almost" makes his argument any more reasonable.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  10. #120
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    Before I start I have one question: What is your purpose in making these types of threads?

    The question I invite you to explore is whether or not NFs truly have fulfilled their causes. Or in other words, are their endeavors truly worthwhile?

    First of all we should define the matter of the situation as clearly as possible.

    What kind of causes do NFs tend to fight for? In literature they are portrayed as fighters for the happiness of society, the common good, and the welfare of the individual.

    Some examples of those would certainly be Buddha, Jesus and Ghandi.

    We know for sure that this is what the NFs are portrayed as fighters of. But was this really the case?

    In order to truly know this we must psychologize those heroes to see what they were thinking.
    Your premise is a little bit odd in my opinion. 'We know for sure that this is what the NFs are portrayed as fighters of. But was this really the case?' That quote makes it seem like you are going to refute the notion that Jesus, Buddha, and Ghandi actually tried to fight for 'the happiness of society, the common good, and the welfare of the individual', which you don't exactly do.

    A first step to this would be attempting to discover how an NF's mind works, granted of course that the NF is a pure type.
    A pure type being having no Thinking or Sensing function? I highly doubt someone like that exists in reality. An argument that stems from such an unrealistic notion will surely be a strawman.

    Both of these are amorphous, as few would find it hard to agree that Feeling is not nearly as neatly organized as thinking. It is moosh.
    Feeling itself has logical sequencing BW, emotion is not random, it has triggers. If a trigger needs to be switched on, then there is a cause to the emotion, therefore a sequence, not pure randomness. Example: Jesus sees the sorrow of his fellow people and the oppression they receive from the Romans --> Emotional trigger is set off --> Jesus tries to improve the lives of these people, feeding them, "healing" them, and teaching them his idea of good morals. (BTW, I'm not a Christian, I'm a stout Atheist). When interacting with people, feelers are likely having multiple triggers being flipped on and off, there is sequencing. However it is complicated and difficult to understand for us Thinkers. One may say that a feeler is being run by the people switching the triggers, and therefore not in control of his/her thoughts and actions, but this is assuming that the person has absolutely no control over themselves whatsoever, which is simply false because feelers learn to understand their emotions and restrain or display them when necessary.

    Intuition is simply pure abstract perception. From this it seems we are in the position to adduce that the NFs are unlikely to have a clear view of the causes they were fighting for.
    No sane person does not take into account details about reality that they receive via Sensing when deciding to fight for a cause. You are interpreting typology too literally.

    To answer the earlier question, were the causes they truly stood for as magnanimous as we think they were? We do not know. Neither do they. Unless of course those NFs were exceptionally gifted at the use of their inferior or tertiary Thinking faculty, which is highly doubtful.
    This makes no sense. If the NF was fighting for the cause of "the welfare of the individual", that is a magnanimous cause, it doesn't matter the means of fighting for it in my opinion, the action is what counts. Understanding a good cause and Not fighting for it is worse than Not Understanding a good cause but still fighting for it.

    What else do we know about Feeling? That it tends to dramatize? Prone to wishful thinking? It seems far more likely that the causes appear magnanimous because NFs and their followers have romanticized them.
    You are only presenting negative aspects of a feeler with a highly underdeveloped thinking function, that kind of person maybe only exists in a pre-teen who doesn't know any better yet. Also, NTs have followers that have romanticized them, take Copernicus for an example, he's been credited with the idea of Heliocentrism when it had been present in other cultures for centuries.

    The truth is
    Don't say "the truth", there is no absolute truth, except for maybe in mathematics (1+1=2, absolute truth).

    they were confused individuals driven by blind and amorphous forces of passion who made such great noise of their endeavors because they sought approbation from others. Much akin to a typical drama queen. All of us who operate almost exclusively on emotion will obviously seek affirmation for our passions and will clamor at great length to receive the approval we seek. This is clearly descriptive of the NF stereotype. And certainly the heroes of history such as those listed above were very reminiscent of the NF stereotype.
    Proof by assertion, hasty generalization, strawman. That is clearly descriptive of an extreme stereotype of someone who has no balance in their cognitive processes. This is very similar to what you wrote: "All hispanic people in the US crossed the border illegally, they are all lazy, dirty people, who mow our lawns and make our fast food for us."

    In the end, no they have not fulfilled their causes because they did not know what their causes were.
    You can fulfill a cause and not know what the cause was, your making a false dichotomy, the options being "they know the cause and fulfill it" and "they don't know the cause and don't fulfill it". You try to make the case that because they don't know the cause they can't possibly fulfill it. The other options that you didn't consider are "they know the cause and don't fulfill it" and "they don't know the cause and fulfill it". You may have not directly stated the dichotomy but it was implied.

    we have many stories concerning how they fulfilled this or that romantic mission without having a clear idea of what this mission is, much of which has been fabricated altogether by their followers who eulogize them without respite. They are but prey to urban legend for us to exercise our imagination upon, their statures have degenerated into an empty vessel for us to fill in with whatever may serve our purpose. This is why we have many different sects who profess to be followers of Jesus who all have radically different views of who he was and what he taught. This has gone on until Emperor Constantine exacted pogroms of those who disagreed with his view of that man's teaching. Same could be said for Muhammad, Buddha, Ghandi or any other leader who has been purported to have shown us the path to virtue.
    Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. The cause of the confusion about Jesus's teachings is not that he was an NF, but rather that the scripture written by his followers can be interpreted in various ways being that it was written 2000 years ago in a different language and culture. Also I'm pretty sure that the teachings of Buddha and Ghandi aren't misinterpreted in any way.

    All worldviews founded upon emotion and not clear-cut rationale are bound to degenerate into chicanery.
    Be careful with the word "All". Also, what if a worldview was to be founded upon emotion And clear-cut rationale? You might argue that if it was to be founded on emotion then it must be irrational, however i've shown you how emotion has logical sequencing and can therefore be rational if controlled.

    The Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, modern Christianity, are all founded on amorphous values and for political reasons insist on proselytizing to the end of convincing others to embrace their values. They are all mendacious and rapacious and I think will end up destroying civilization. All springing out of the root of NF causes.
    Correlation does not imply causation, once again.

    We ought to stop trying to turn Earth into heaven, as we have only succeeded in turning it into hell.
    Agreed.

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