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Thread: ENFP vs INFJ

  1. #11
    Junior Member vrusimov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    @vrusimov

    In regards to the introverted ENFP, what is generally referred to in this claim is social introversion, which is different than cognitive introversion. It is quite possible for an ENFP to be a 4w5, as evidenced by me, who's claim I find irrefutable.

    I meet plenty of INFJs who are way more socially extraverted than I am, they have these strange extra-normal abilities to have a social calendar and stick to it, be swayed by appeals to social conventions in gathering and communing (Fe), and seem to know how to navigate interpersonal situations much better than I. My own type and lacks in these matter lead me to hole up, entertained by my own varied and disjointed fancies and then be given to very strange and wanton social episodes when I end up wandering out in near-withdrawal state, always an attempt to experience life and all its grit and realities.

    I have zero 7 in my tri-type. My adventure buddy is a reluctant INFP 4w3, I have spent much time with another ENFP 4w3, and an ENFP 7w8. Strangely, all of them versed in enneagram and MBTI, except for the INFP who is versed in beat poetry and self loathing.
    You are more introverted than INFJs/INFPs and you meet "plenty" of INFJs, even though they are supposedly the rarest type? My question to you is where do you put INFJs and INFPs if you are irrefutably 4w5 and you are more introverted than all the INFJs you meet? I'm irrefutably an INFJ 4w5 sp/sx...maybe you are more introverted than me as well, although I'm pretty much a hermit these days. And if you are more introverted than me, then why don't you type as INFP? "I meet plenty INFJs who are way more socially extraverted than I am". This makes zero sense to me. According to you, it appears that there will never be ANY INFJs or INFPs who are more introverted than you, an ENFP. That strains credibility. Fe is not really about connecting and communing with, or through a social calendar...it is not the impetus for needing to meet and engage people. Fe is concerned with harmony and what is appropriate during interactions with others. As an INFJ 4w5, I couldn't find a social calendar with a roadmap and GPS, and I am certainly not allured by "experiencing" all the grit and realities of life. The inner mind is sufficient for such things.

    It really is pretty simple, if you don't identify with Ne+Te and how it manifests in the need to meet and engage people, then ENFP might not be your "area". This is what I call standing on two squares. You are the most introverted ENFP of all time but you don't identify with INFP. You are more introverted than the "plenty rare INFJs" you meet, but you don't identify with INFP. Excuse me if I'm not convinced...saying you are 4w5 is like saying you are 5w4, because there is very little that separates those two types. I have seen plenty of ENFP's claiming 5w4 as well, so it is nothing new. Your "adventure" buddy is a reluctant INFP 4w3? As a 4w5, I don't understand the term "adventure buddy"...maybe you could elaborate. The fact that you don't have 7 in your tri-type does not bode well for you being an ENFP.

    So if I am reading this correctly, then you are an ENFP who finds excuses not to meet people or go places and is content to be reclusive indefinitely, and you don't have much use for a phone other than to charge it. You might also have a friend or two who you don't actually ever get to see and have no compunction to really change that situation, because you heavily enjoy all the accolades of being alone and somewhat isolated. In the end, it is all your INFP and INFJ friends that drag you, an ENFP kicking and screaming from your house and into the real world. I don't see it. If you are claiming ENFP, then that is the type whose descriptions you identify with, and they are quite different from Fi and Ni dominants (both introverts). If you have done the work with cognitive functions, then you will surely see why your Ne dominant preference manifests itself differently than those of Fi and Ni doms. Yours is an extroverted type, and as such, meeting and engaging people will be more of an impetus than Fi/Ni doms.

    All that said, it is entirely possible that you might have a type of social anxiety disorder, which might be clouding your Enneagram/MBTI interface. If such a thing is indeed your case, then you have my apologies.

  2. #12
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    Just putting in my two cents here. Basically, I'm going to side with @vrusimov

    As an older INFP (age 58), I've known several older ENFPs and ENTPs who have effectively become solitary or downright hermits. But I don't think that being a hermit makes them introverts. Their "energy" remains outward. To explain in more detail:

    When I got to know these "hermit" Ne-Doms, it appeared to me that they have come to distrust their Ne or have at least learned to put some heavy constraints on its use. Maybe they were tired of being regarded as flakes; maybe they were exploring their introverted Auxiliary function and going overboard at it (much as they tend to do with everything in life).

    Despite all that, you can tell that they remain extraverts at their core. Bring them out to a rare social function, and their Ne turns on like a cannon blast. Even if they don't actually talk to anyone, they're bustling about from one group to another or from one distraction to another trying to soak in as much as possible. And it's difficult to drag them away from a social function and bring them back to their solitude; they love the energy of being around people, and at a social function they feel alive for the first time in a long while.

    Anyway, it's just a personal impression. But I knew lots of ENFPs and ENTPs in my profession (the translation field attracts a lot of Ne-Doms and Ne-Auxs), and I definitely saw a number of these "hermit" Ne-Doms. They called themselves "introverts" and "hermits," but it was kind of artificial from what I could see; get them around people, and you could see their true nature.

    By way of comparison: As an older INFP I can be quite social for long periods of time. People are surprised when I say that I'm an INFP and an introvert. I've worked at my social skills, and in some ways I'm better at them than many natural extraverts (since I've studied the subject from the outside). But my basic "natural" orientation remains inward. To really process an idea, I have to get away from people and mull it on my own. Ultimately, my introverted functions remain my natural "comfort zone."

    Similarly, I've seen plenty of "social" INFJs. But you can see that they have that natural restraint that signals a true introvert.

    On first impression, one might say that a "social" INFJ and a "hermit" ENFP are similar. But to me, there's a world of difference between them. Once I get to know them a little bit, it's clear where they get their energy from: The INFJ gets it from inside, and the ENFP gets it from outside. (And then there's the Ne vs Ni difference, which I won't even bother getting into; see this other post for that subject: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2405589)
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  3. #13
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    @YUI I hate to divisive, but you are actually edging on disagreeing with vrusimov. He is claiming that an ENFP is by definition more socially extraverted than an INFJ. And that an ENFP cannot be enneagram 4 for this reason.

    @vrusimov
    I am afraid I'm going to have to paraphrase your points. If I do it badly, feel free to correct me. First I'm going to address some logical holes that you think you have found in my statements.



    You cannot have met many INFJs because they are the most rare type:
    The fact is INFJs are rare as MBTI types by *comparison* to other types. But in fact, they aren't all that rare really. They represent 1 in 100 people, not exactly lottery odds. In fact, statistically, this makes them common. Even the shyer ones can be found when you get connected into artists or writer or mystic communities or you have people collector extraverted friends.

    I am more introverted than any INFJ I meet.
    This pigeonholing my comments on your behalf is nearly dastardly, I hope this is a misunderstanding. I clearly stated that I am quite socially introverted and more socially introverted than INFJs that I have met. I never stated that they are 4w5, I never stated that I am categorically, nor are any ENFPs are *by definition* more introverted than INFJs. I was merely clarifying what an ENFP means when they claim they are introverted. That they are referring to social introversion, not cognitive. And yes, I believe Fe is a bigger aid to staying social than Fi.

    Once again, leading with Ne doesn't mean that people are always the tonic. They're just the more tasty tonic, with side effects.

    I cannot be an 4w5 because I am an ENFP
    If you care to know more, just cyber stalk me. I don't believe there's anything else that would do.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    @YUI I hate to divisive, but you are actually edging on disagreeing with vrusimov. He is claiming that an ENFP is by definition more socially extraverted than an INFJ. And that an ENFP cannot be enneagram 4 for this reason.
    I understand what you're saying. It kind of depends where you put the emphasis. IOW, yes I agree that Ne-Dom hermits exist. OTOH, if you put them in their element (a social situation), their true colors come out and their introversion suddenly seems kind of artificial and self-imposed.

    But whatever. I'll let you and vrusimov duke it out beyond that. (And I don't know anything about enneagram numbers.)

  5. #15
    Junior Member vrusimov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    @YUI I hate to divisive, but you are actually edging on disagreeing with vrusimov. He is claiming that an ENFP is by definition more socially extraverted than an INFJ. And that an ENFP cannot be enneagram 4 for this reason.


    You cannot have met many INFJs because they are the most rare type:
    The fact is INFJs are rare as MBTI types by *comparison* to other types. But in fact, they aren't all that rare really. They represent 1 in 100 people, not exactly lottery odds. In fact, statistically, this makes them common. Even the shyer ones can be found when you get connected into artists or writer or mystic communities or you have people collector extraverted friends.

    That is assuming that they actually WANT to be found. It also assumes that they are typed accurately, which can be a problem with the simple taking of tests, especially without being well-versed in the cognitive functions and Enneagram "theory" (not descriptions). It also might not actually be 1-in-100 when you account for INFJs that will be "otherwise predisposed" in a manner that puts them outside of your social circle.


    I am more introverted than any INFJ I meet.
    This pigeonholing my comments on your behalf is nearly dastardly, I hope this is a misunderstanding. I clearly stated that I am quite socially introverted and more socially introverted than INFJs that I have met. I never stated that they are 4w5, I never stated that I am categorically, nor are any ENFPs are *by definition* more introverted than INFJs. I was merely clarifying what an ENFP means when they claim they are introverted. That they are referring to social introversion, not cognitive. And yes, I believe Fe is a bigger aid to staying social than Fi.

    Once again, leading with Ne doesn't mean that people are always the tonic. They're just the more tasty tonic, with side effects.


    Yes...I misunderstood, but minus "social introversion", this still leaves only "cognitive" Ni-Ti vs. Ne-Te. An introvert versus an extrovert. Fe is not always warm and inviting, it can change the temperature of the surroundings if the person wants to create distance or closeness. INFJs are highly prone to feeling alone in a crowd. I take your *by definition* to mean that the "social introversion" you speak of his actually shyness/awkwardness on your part in social situations...in comparison to Fe from fellow INFJs. You never stated that they were 4w5, but can you even be certain that they are all INFJs as well?

    You can't really quantify a statement like: "I meet plenty of INFJs who are way more socially extraverted than I am, they have these strange extra-normal abilities to have a social calendar and stick to it..." This seems to imply that "they" all behave the same way and they all have the same, strange predilections for social calendars. "Way more" starts to sound more INFP/INTP to me. Again, the assumption is that they (INFJs) are all accurately typed. Your descriptions make me wonder if some of them are not in fact Fe dominants. It is not likely that all the INFJs you know will exude the exact same proclivities...that would be like saying that all ENFPs are "socially introverted". I could not find an actual definition of this term. I do however find a recurring theme of confusion amongst ENFPs when it comes to social interaction. INFJs are not confused by Fe, they know that they are introverts. At least I do. Extroverts seem to want to run from anything to do with type descriptions like: bubbly or "social butterfly", even though the descriptions are often an accurate depiction of how they embrace others warmly. These depictions are instead seen as pejorative and therefore something to be abrogated, expunged or disavowed. IOW, they start claiming introversion.

    For ENFP, Fi isn't the sole function being activated in a social setting. The Ne-Fi-Te combination wants to connect with people. That is the signature of the type. The type descriptions of ENFP and the function stack just do not project as a type less comfortable with being sociable than auxiliary Fe.



    I cannot be an 4w5 because I am an ENFP
    You can be anything you want to be, but the manner and tone of your responses comport with patterns I have seen over the last four months, studying ENFPs and their affinity for choosing 4w5/5w4. Most will fit better at 4w3, but there is a common theme...mostly something like: "I can be more introverted than most introverts", or something along those lines.

    My view is that extroverts largely just don't comprehend the nature of introverts...especially the ones they will NEVER get to see. Example? Try this from Personality Cafe:



    "My ENFP wife was very introverted sometimes.

    I being an ENFJ am deeply introverted as well. In fact ... I sometimes really hate being around certain people. They drain the hell out of me. I wanna get away from negative interactions in a flash.

    It's not whether we're introverted or not [because all extroverts are in their own way as their aux functions are all introverted ones] .. it's how much of introversion we can take before we need to be around people again.

    When I'm alone too long, I become miserable and I want to be around people. That's the case for most extroverts. Not all of us are social butterflies.

    It works in reverse as well. Many introverts want to be around people after long periods of alone time.

    It's just that introverts can be alone longer than extroverts [for the most part]."


    The bolded parts are just a lovely contradiction by an ENFJ, many of whom also cast themselves as 4w5. Similar statements have been made by ENFPs. Again, they don't see why they are not introverts. "Deeply introverted", yet can't be alone for too long or he becomes "miserable". Introverts don't usually think like this, "especially" more reclusive ones. No wonder so many people mistype, misidentify and misplace themselves. This is just one example of MANY I could find. It would not be a tough assignment.

    [ENFP] Introverted ENFP

    If you care to know more, just cyber stalk me. I don't believe there's anything else that would do.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, stalking isn't my "area". I am perfectly content with not getting the last word, laugh, or sigh.

  6. #16
    Member xXMariahXx's Avatar
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    I mistyped one of my best friends as ENFP who turned out as really INFJ.

    I assumed her to be an extrovert but now see that it's because she's INFp-Fe - that strong Fe auxiliary.

    And I assumed her to be a perceiver because of her laid-back and open demeanor, but now see that it's because IJ's are actually inward perceivers.
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  7. #17
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    Some INFJs are fond of humor, like ENFPs. But ENFP humor is more cheeky. I myself sound like some nutty INFJ shaman whenever I get "deep". So yeah they can look similar.
    I want my cake and I wanna eat it too

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