User Tag List

First 2345 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 45

Thread: Doubting N

  1. #31
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Shit, this is really more difficult than it seems... Makes me wanna go NT: "Words should have definite meanings. No word shall mean two different things!"

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Yeah, I don't really consider that decision-making but just following instinct. A baby doesn't decide to cry or decide to eat. It just does. When a person is asked to assess a situation and make some type of determination, they need to evaluate their feelings (F) or the parameters assigned to solving the task (T).
    So instinct is NOT a part of the same structure as the functions of MBTI? I am sure that whatever functions the human mind has, they need to start from animal instincts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Those are value judgments?
    Yes, why not? I feel hungry, it is best for me to eat.

  2. #32
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    7,233

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Shit, this is really more difficult than it seems... Makes me wanna go NT: "Words should have definite meanings. No word shall mean two different things!"

    So instinct is NOT a part of the same structure as the functions of MBTI? I am sure that whatever functions the human mind has, they need to start from animal instincts.
    I think the problem in the first paragraph answers the problem in the second. Who has authority to say what is part of MBTI and what isn't? It's easy to do from far away, but hard to do up close when you get into abstract, picky questions. I was telling you what I thought. I'm not a representative of MBTI (as if that would settle the matter). I don't think MBTI was intended to apply to infants, so it doesn't make much sense. Trying to force everything into an MBTI framework (babies, animals, countries, whatever) is more of a word game than anything meaningful and significant. Who cares how you define babies' behaviors? Call it whatever you want as long as you're staying faithful to what's out there.

  3. #33
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    My point is, the connections are often imaginary.

    Intuition does not involve pattern analysis. It's simply the awareness that a pattern or connection is present. The intuitor who doesn't analyze the patterns he knows of may often be able to predict the next event, without knowing why he knew.
    Good stuff. Still feeling hazy about if I have the concept, but getting closer...

  4. #34
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Trying to force everything into an MBTI framework (babies, animals, countries, whatever) is more of a word game than anything meaningful and significant. Who cares how you define babies' behaviors? Call it whatever you want as long as you're staying faithful to what's out there.
    I care. To me it is important to get a whole picture, or as whole as possible. If one theory doesn't cut it, I will apply the next into that missing part.

  5. #35
    mrs disregard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    7,855

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    WTF, it isn't feeling based? Don't confuse me more!!! All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Yeah, I don't really consider that decision-making but just following instinct. A baby doesn't decide to cry or decide to eat. It just does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nolla
    All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"
    Those are value judgments?
    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yes, why not? I feel hungry, it is best for me to eat.
    "I feel tired, I sleep." (which is what babies do) is not a value judgment, as there is no decision-making process, as Edahn mentioned.

    That is why I said "those are value judgments?"

    Because you didn't initially say "I feel tired; it would be best for me to sleep," because babies obviously can't reason like that.

  6. #36
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Michael Scott. Q.E.D:
    Haha...exactly.

    This is exactly why Michael Scott is an N.

  7. #37
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    7,233

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I care. To me it is important to get a whole picture, or as whole as possible. If one theory doesn't cut it, I will apply the next into that missing part.
    Okay. Personally, I don't understand how classifying babies as T or F really helps you understand what babies do any more than you already do. I get that you want a theory to be comprehensive, but this theory concerns the classification of personality. I don't even think of babies as having personalities. Parents like to project personalities onto their kids "oh, he's so patient" or "he's so grumpy" but I think it's a load of ass. Look at the questions used to split Ts and Fs. How would that work in the context of babies?

    "I enjoy debate."
    [baby poops]

    "I care about my friends."
    [baby looks at you stupidly and poops some more]

    "I take pleasure in analyzing problems."
    [baby cries and throws up all over you]

    "Thank you."

  8. #38
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default


  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    No no, I'm not expecting it to be any more magical than feeling or sensing.

    I see patterns to be a conclusion, a result of thinking. Convince me that it isn't thinking. How can I know when a pattern is coming from "out there" as intuition, and not as a result of the thinking process? Intuition should be opposite of sensing, but similar in a way it gives me information of the world, right? So, how does this information come to me? I have eyes, so I see. Is intuition a different way to use that visual information? I don't clearly see how intuition could work in the role of sensing. Or in a similar way...
    Do you think of the individual functions as operating in isolation to each other? I don't perceive the clear boundaries this suggests. The actual experience of cognition to me is more like a synthesis of many functions at one time with certain ones being given more weight. How do you experience one function without it being intermingled with the others?

    ISTPs can be confused for INTs because they analyze using Ti and think in terms of systems and relationships, but the content they choose tends to be more observable and concrete. I don't understand iNtuition to be just observing patterns, but being at home in the world of the abstract. It is the ability to *know* without requiring what is tangible. From an F perspective it could include being able to glimpse the world through someone else's eyes. This is accomplished in part through recognizing their patterns, but focuses on those aspects of the patterns that cannot be measured absolutely. A Sensor can be quite effective in interpreting patterns in facial expression and gesture and connecting those to certain behaviors. The iNtuitive will become more aware of the person's most probably internal motivations (that aspect that cannot be observed in concrete terms.) For a T they will apply connections and patterns to abstract concepts. Theoretical physics (like examining String Theory) is a home for T based iNtuition, while the application and design that results from theory (such as engineering) is a home for Sensing based pattern and design. The ST can prove the patterns by building an object that demonstrates the truth of these, while the NT can construct a theory whose patterns remain internally consistent.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #40
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,584

    Default

    Here's a metaphor that might demonstrate how the iNtuitive vs. Sensor makes connections. (The metaphor is only useful if not taken too literally)

    Observe a lake. Sensing views the waves, the colors of light that reflect off the water, the pattern of strong and weak waves as they come to the shore. Every detail is observed, measured, verified. That which can be seen and known is most valued and used as data for forming connections. iNtuition views the waves and asks what they imply about the content of the lake. How deep is the lake? What is the nature between what is seen on the surface and what lies beneath this? Hypotheses are created with varying degrees of certainty.

    Sensing and iNtuition work as counterbalances that inform and challenge each other about the nature of reality. iNtuition creates plausible outlines of how everything connects together, both the seen and unseen. Sensing fills in the details by connecting specific aspects of concrete data. Sensing starts with the details and forms measured connections, while iNtuition thinks in terms of plausible connections based on universal principles and tests these against the details.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] NFs, do you get tired of giving people "the benefit of the doubt"?
    By chatoyer in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 07-30-2009, 05:57 PM
  2. Avoiding arrogance AND anxious doubt...any tips?
    By ygolo in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 01-04-2009, 11:22 PM
  3. Help an ESFJ in Doubt
    By reason in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-03-2008, 07:52 PM
  4. Do You Doubt My Type?
    By FFF in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-12-2008, 12:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO