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  1. #41
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    I can agree with this. Althought it is still not necessarily strictly related to type with primary Fe or Te. People with not primary Te and/or Fe can still use these functions to manipulate.
    INTPs are not gettin any luv here, so I'll say this about myself and maybe my type. I can use Si-Fe to shame someone who has done something wrong, to teach him not to do it again. This would prolly fall into the passive-aggressive camp of behavior. And I'm not sure it should be considered manipulation, proper, since it's done with his full knowledge--in fact, it couldn't work w/o his knowledge since imparting this knowledge is the whole point. And there's no sneakiness about it, either. Just in-your-face, you screwed up, don't do it again messaging. Otoh, the purpose is to discourage this behavior in the future. So, inasmuch as it is intended to influence behavior, it can be seen as a kind of manipulation. But it lacks the insidiousness and unscrupulousness of what is commonly thought of as manipulation.

    So INTPs might use Fe or Si-Fe in reaction to something, while a Fe-dom might use it in anticipation.

    The other response to someone who has done something wrong is to remove myself from his presence: if temporary, then it's also a kind of passive-aggressive messaging; if permanent, it's self-defense.

  2. #42
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Yes. As an ENFJ I can definitely say we can be manipulative little bitches. Half the time I don't even realize I do it because it's automatic. I have actually had to train myself not to do it. I've definitely done some very manipulative/underhanded things in the past and can't say I won't again in the future.

    Simply put, it really does just come natural.
    How do you do it? And how does what you do depend on the type you do it on--eg, T vs F, N vs S, etc? What types are the easiest to manipulate? And what types the hardest?

  3. #43
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    How do you do it? And how does what you do depend on the type you do it on--eg, T vs F, N vs S, etc? What types are the easiest to manipulate? And what types the hardest?
    It's hard to explain honestly, because I take it case by case. It's heavily dictated by who is involved, what the endgame is, and the environment I am in. The biggest tool is definitely conversation. I will set to mind where I want a conversation to lead, and knowing that it will sort of just happen naturally because I end up running it in real time. If I try and set a iron clad plan of "I must do this, then this, then this" it will come across as forced and suspect. A big tool is self-disclosure. The more I offer about myself, the more inclined people are to mirror that in some regard, which lowers walls and allows me to push things around or get things offered, etc. I also impart a lot of breathing room. If a path starts to fail, I let it fail. The other person needs to feel that they aren't being manipulated at all.

    As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.

    It's all a very organic process for me.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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  4. #44
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's hard to explain honestly, because I take it case by case. It's heavily dictated by who is involved, what the endgame is, and the environment I am in. The biggest tool is definitely conversation. I will set to mind where I want a conversation to lead, and knowing that it will sort of just happen naturally because I end up running it in real time. If I try and set a iron clad plan of "I must do this, then this, then this" it will come across as forced and suspect. A big tool is self-disclosure. The more I offer about myself, the more inclined people are to mirror that in some regard, which lowers walls and allows me to push things around or get things offered, etc. I also impart a lot of breathing room. If a path starts to fail, I let it fail. The other person needs to feel that they aren't being manipulated at all.

    As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.

    It's all a very organic process for me.
    Going through the process you describe above, how do you use your cognitive functions in each step? Fe is often the reason ENFJs are cited as the most manipulative type. How does it work, both by itself and together with your other functions?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    INTPs are not gettin any luv here, so I'll say this about myself and maybe my type. I can use Si-Fe to shame someone who has done something wrong, to teach him not to do it again. This would prolly fall into the passive-aggressive camp of behavior. And I'm not sure it should be considered manipulation, proper, since it's done with his full knowledge--in fact, it couldn't work w/o his knowledge since imparting this knowledge is the whole point. And there's no sneakiness about it, either. Just in-your-face, you screwed up, don't do it again messaging. Otoh, the purpose is to discourage this behavior in the future. So, inasmuch as it is intended to influence behavior, it can be seen as a kind of manipulation. But it lacks the insidiousness and unscrupulousness of what is commonly thought of as manipulation.

    So INTPs might use Fe or Si-Fe in reaction to something, while a Fe-dom might use it in anticipation.

    The other response to someone who has done something wrong is to remove myself from his presence: if temporary, then it's also a kind of passive-aggressive messaging; if permanent, it's self-defense.
    INTPs may definitely compete in mind games. I've watched them reason their way into someone's comfort zone, from which standpoint they could have wrought emotional and social havoc. Whether they would see this as appealing or worth effort is another question.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    But you keep going there, even though you dislike the way you're being treated. You voice no objection about that or about installing the fridge. If he's told you he hates people (and I've said this myself more than once), what is it you're trying to accomplish with him?
    He has a lab in his garage, and this lab was related to my job I had at the time. The refrigerator was for the lab, it wasn't any old refrigerator but a special kind. I didn't mind helping with it, but I do mind being manipulated into helping with it. Perhaps he was just afraid to ask.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #47
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    Going through the process you describe above, how do you use your cognitive functions in each step? Fe is often the reason ENFJs are cited as the most manipulative type. How does it work, both by itself and together with your other functions?
    Well, Fe is fairly good at understanding social dymanics. Any type and function can be good at this, but for Fe this is something that is automatically attuned to and is usually automatic. This does not mean the individual will be good or correct at this, but nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that that's how it is done. Fe seeks to determine and form long term goals and plans with subjective information; the world of people is one of the biggest things it deals with as they are inheriently subjective and "messy". Fe will seek to understand who is important, who knows who, what the goals of others around them are, the vibe and flow of groups. It will deconstruct and delineate these inheriantly convoluted things.

    Ni will then next come into play by trying to converge upon all of this. Fe gave the data, it understood it and determined what is important and not, Ni will then connect and disconnect it all. This is where a lot of the implicit understanding comes from. It will refer to Fe's knowledge of people and behavior, and zero in on an individual (or in some cases more than one) and attempt to probe and pull out what makes them tick. It's meerly gathering information for Fe to use, but ultimately it's like it's reading the user manual of how they work. Of course it can't do this cold. Fe is pulling information out, and once it's out Ni will read it.

    Se then plays an important role: real time modification. People are extremely dynamic and improvization will be required. Se will jump on moments to take full advantage of them, and force Ni to adapt should it be caught in a rut. It also gives Fe further finesse and the ability to deviate from it's "plan" if it's needed.

    Ti finally comes in by paying attention to details. It need to carefully keep a watch over what is said and how things are presented. For if things are misplaced or misstepped then it could all be for naught. It will listen carefully to what is being said and what is going on, and refer to it's internal logic. Up to this point most of what has gone on is external, and there need to be further internal referencing for the picture to be complete free of external influences as Fe is heavily influenced by the world around it. It acts as the all important static reference point or grounding rod.

    I have said this elsewhere in the past but it's worth saying again because it illustrates the above well. About 2 years ago I had a wonderful experience that allowed me to put my "skills" to the test in a controlled environment. I play Humans Vs. Zombies on campus, and in fall 2012 I was the original zombie for the game. Without going into too much detail, essentially I was a spy. OZ's look exactly like humans, but can make tags and "kill" humans as they are actually a zombie in disguise. Early on on the first day I figured out that I was a complete natural at this. My tactic? Blend in and strike before anyone can notice, or use social skills to dupe people. One particular tag highlights this:



    As I said, for an ENFJ this stuff happens naturally. For an ESFJ this would look very different because they would be far more conscious, scrupulous, and diligent with their methods. The Ni/Se is very much an unconscious/real-time modifier to Fe which is why it all plays out like this, and why it can be so damn effective.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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  8. #48
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    Obviously not the ENTP.

  9. #49
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opal View Post
    I know a fairly charismatic INTJ in person. His is a dry humor, but he successfully sways group opinions and plants plans of action that others enact.
    I can do this as well, if I put my mind to it. It is all about understanding what the other person wants as well as his/her vulnerabilities. You offer the first and hint at the second. In the best cases, you get what really is a win-win situation, though it may require a little arm-twisting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #50
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.
    Are we some fun toys ??

    Yes putting people in type boxes is limiting when we make generalities about "manipulative type".

    Each type can manipulate with its own strengths. So a T will use ideas, an F feelings and so on.

    As @doppelganger said NT are not the bests with feelings ! They may be the best to control them unconsciously and naturally.
    I'm working on my own feelings, but I used to ignore them.

    I'm great at defending myself as I'll point any illogical stuff.
    I'd suck at manipulating others' feeling and that does not interest me. Loss of time and of my precious energy.

    To me manipulation is a weakness. If you try to manipulate me I'll not see you as a smart ass but as a person to avoid.
    Manipulators don't create links, or share ideas, they simply look for (unhealthy) naive preys to suck they blood out of their veins.


    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

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