Most manipulative NT type

[doppelganger]

I can agree with this. Althought it is still not necessarily strictly related to type with primary Fe or Te. People with not primary Te and/or Fe can still use these functions to manipulate.

INTPs are not gettin any luv here, so I'll say this about myself and maybe my type. I can use Si-Fe to shame someone who has done something wrong, to teach him not to do it again. This would prolly fall into the passive-aggressive camp of behavior. And I'm not sure it should be considered manipulation, proper, since it's done with his full knowledge--in fact, it couldn't work w/o his knowledge since imparting this knowledge is the whole point. And there's no sneakiness about it, either. Just in-your-face, you screwed up, don't do it again messaging. Otoh, the purpose is to discourage this behavior in the future. So, inasmuch as it is intended to influence behavior, it can be seen as a kind of manipulation. But it lacks the insidiousness and unscrupulousness of what is commonly thought of as manipulation.

So INTPs might use Fe or Si-Fe in reaction to something, while a Fe-dom might use it in anticipation.

The other response to someone who has done something wrong is to remove myself from his presence: if temporary, then it's also a kind of passive-aggressive messaging; if permanent, it's self-defense.

 

[doppelganger]

Yes. As an ENFJ I can definitely say we can be manipulative little bitches. Half the time I don't even realize I do it because it's automatic. I have actually had to train myself not to do it. I've definitely done some very manipulative/underhanded things in the past and can't say I won't again in the future.

Simply put, it really does just come natural.

How do you do it? And how does what you do depend on the type you do it on--eg, T vs F, N vs S, etc? What types are the easiest to manipulate? And what types the hardest?

 

[á´…eparted]

How do you do it? And how does what you do depend on the type you do it on--eg, T vs F, N vs S, etc? What types are the easiest to manipulate? And what types the hardest?

It's hard to explain honestly, because I take it case by case. It's heavily dictated by who is involved, what the endgame is, and the environment I am in. The biggest tool is definitely conversation. I will set to mind where I want a conversation to lead, and knowing that it will sort of just happen naturally because I end up running it in real time. If I try and set a iron clad plan of "I must do this, then this, then this" it will come across as forced and suspect. A big tool is self-disclosure. The more I offer about myself, the more inclined people are to mirror that in some regard, which lowers walls and allows me to push things around or get things offered, etc. I also impart a lot of breathing room. If a path starts to fail, I let it fail. The other person needs to feel that they aren't being manipulated at all.

As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.

It's all a very organic process for me.

 

[doppelganger]

It's hard to explain honestly, because I take it case by case. It's heavily dictated by who is involved, what the endgame is, and the environment I am in. The biggest tool is definitely conversation. I will set to mind where I want a conversation to lead, and knowing that it will sort of just happen naturally because I end up running it in real time. If I try and set a iron clad plan of "I must do this, then this, then this" it will come across as forced and suspect. A big tool is self-disclosure. The more I offer about myself, the more inclined people are to mirror that in some regard, which lowers walls and allows me to push things around or get things offered, etc. I also impart a lot of breathing room. If a path starts to fail, I let it fail. The other person needs to feel that they aren't being manipulated at all.

As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.

It's all a very organic process for me.

Going through the process you describe above, how do you use your cognitive functions in each step? Fe is often the reason ENFJs are cited as the most manipulative type. How does it work, both by itself and together with your other functions?

 

[Opal]

INTPs are not gettin any luv here, so I'll say this about myself and maybe my type. I can use Si-Fe to shame someone who has done something wrong, to teach him not to do it again. This would prolly fall into the passive-aggressive camp of behavior. And I'm not sure it should be considered manipulation, proper, since it's done with his full knowledge--in fact, it couldn't work w/o his knowledge since imparting this knowledge is the whole point. And there's no sneakiness about it, either. Just in-your-face, you screwed up, don't do it again messaging. Otoh, the purpose is to discourage this behavior in the future. So, inasmuch as it is intended to influence behavior, it can be seen as a kind of manipulation. But it lacks the insidiousness and unscrupulousness of what is commonly thought of as manipulation.

So INTPs might use Fe or Si-Fe in reaction to something, while a Fe-dom might use it in anticipation.

The other response to someone who has done something wrong is to remove myself from his presence: if temporary, then it's also a kind of passive-aggressive messaging; if permanent, it's self-defense.

INTPs may definitely compete in mind games. I've watched them reason their way into someone's comfort zone, from which standpoint they could have wrought emotional and social havoc. Whether they would see this as appealing or worth effort is another question.

 

[Mal12345]

But you keep going there, even though you dislike the way you're being treated. You voice no objection about that or about installing the fridge. If he's told you he hates people (and I've said this myself more than once), what is it you're trying to accomplish with him?

He has a lab in his garage, and this lab was related to my job I had at the time. The refrigerator was for the lab, it wasn't any old refrigerator but a special kind. I didn't mind helping with it, but I do mind being manipulated into helping with it. Perhaps he was just afraid to ask.

 

[á´…eparted]

Going through the process you describe above, how do you use your cognitive functions in each step? Fe is often the reason ENFJs are cited as the most manipulative type. How does it work, both by itself and together with your other functions?

Well, Fe is fairly good at understanding social dymanics. Any type and function can be good at this, but for Fe this is something that is automatically attuned to and is usually automatic. This does not mean the individual will be good or correct at this, but nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that that's how it is done. Fe seeks to determine and form long term goals and plans with subjective information; the world of people is one of the biggest things it deals with as they are inheriently subjective and "messy". Fe will seek to understand who is important, who knows who, what the goals of others around them are, the vibe and flow of groups. It will deconstruct and delineate these inheriantly convoluted things.

Ni will then next come into play by trying to converge upon all of this. Fe gave the data, it understood it and determined what is important and not, Ni will then connect and disconnect it all. This is where a lot of the implicit understanding comes from. It will refer to Fe's knowledge of people and behavior, and zero in on an individual (or in some cases more than one) and attempt to probe and pull out what makes them tick. It's meerly gathering information for Fe to use, but ultimately it's like it's reading the user manual of how they work. Of course it can't do this cold. Fe is pulling information out, and once it's out Ni will read it.

Se then plays an important role: real time modification. People are extremely dynamic and improvization will be required. Se will jump on moments to take full advantage of them, and force Ni to adapt should it be caught in a rut. It also gives Fe further finesse and the ability to deviate from it's "plan" if it's needed.

Ti finally comes in by paying attention to details. It need to carefully keep a watch over what is said and how things are presented. For if things are misplaced or misstepped then it could all be for naught. It will listen carefully to what is being said and what is going on, and refer to it's internal logic. Up to this point most of what has gone on is external, and there need to be further internal referencing for the picture to be complete free of external influences as Fe is heavily influenced by the world around it. It acts as the all important static reference point or grounding rod.

I have said this elsewhere in the past but it's worth saying again because it illustrates the above well. About 2 years ago I had a wonderful experience that allowed me to put my "skills" to the test in a controlled environment. I play Humans Vs. Zombies on campus, and in fall 2012 I was the original zombie for the game. Without going into too much detail, essentially I was a spy. OZ's look exactly like humans, but can make tags and "kill" humans as they are actually a zombie in disguise. Early on on the first day I figured out that I was a complete natural at this. My tactic? Blend in and strike before anyone can notice, or use social skills to dupe people. One particular tag highlights this:

A girl walks out of a building about 50 ft in front of me on my left hand side. I wanted to go for her, but I thought there was no way I could get her. But as I walked closer something "clicked" in my head. I began to watch myself walk over to her with no plan in my head. The only "plan" I had was to tag people. That's the long term plan. It was sort of weird as it felt like I was watching myself walk over instead of actually being that person. I say to her "hey did you hear about the mini mission going on?" I was 100% making it up as I went. She stiffened and clearly was apprehensive to me so I stayed a good distance away as she fiddled with her bike at the bike rack. She was holding a small blaster (if I was hit I would be stunned and could not tag her). I was holding a blaster of my own and a large 1 gallon water jug. She said she was not aware of a mini-mission. I explained to her that if we transport waterjugs between points we win our team points and get free cookies. This was completely true and it was emphazised by me holding the water jug. She had placed her blaster in the basket of her bike and I noticed it. She seemed to be relaxing some. Throughout all of this I am acting somewhat "paranoid". I am looking over my shoulders behind me as many many students are walking by. From her prospective, I am being watchful for zombies. Really, I am being watchful for humans, for if I was seen making a tag my cover would be blown. Combining the fact that I am looking around, holding heavy objects, it was natural for me to meander slightly. What she did not realize is that I was getting slowly but surely closer to her. Eventually I moved my blaster to my hand holding the water jug for a multitude of reasons. The first is it showed I was relaxing and trusting by not needing to be actively armed. Second it made it seem like my arm was tired. Third it allowed me to talk with my hand more (which had appeared and was hindered by holding two objects). Most importantly though, it would allow for an easy strike. Then, mid sentence, I take a large step forward and whack her on the arm and said "oh by the way I am OZ". She then tilted her head up and shouted "...FUUUUUUCCCKKKKKKKKKKKK." I quieted her down and luckily her shouting did not give me away (no players were around, and revealing OZ's post a tag is against the rules). She then said to me that I "RUINED" her halloween costume as it was based off her being human. She also told me that "she felt something was off, but it was like she was watching herself fall into my trap helpless to stop herself".

The whole event truly highlights how this can work, and at least for me how it can work. First of all, that was totally impromtu. All I knew is I had to make tags. All of the subtle moves I made, the body language, the word choices, my demanor was not actively selected or done. It just happened naturally and didn't require active though. I actually had to reflect back in hindsight to realize why I did what I did because it was happening so quickly for myself. As an example, moving the blaster to my hand and timing that event? I just did it. It was like "ah yup need to do this".

I am naturally skilled at this sort of thing and have been since I was little. Please remember that while what I did is effective, does not mean that all ENFJ's will be effective at this. It's the process that will be similar.

As I said, for an ENFJ this stuff happens naturally. For an ESFJ this would look very different because they would be far more conscious, scrupulous, and diligent with their methods. The Ni/Se is very much an unconscious/real-time modifier to Fe which is why it all plays out like this, and why it can be so damn effective.

 

[The Ü™]

Obviously not the ENTP.

 

[Coriolis]

I know a fairly charismatic INTJ in person. His is a dry humor, but he successfully sways group opinions and plants plans of action that others enact.

I can do this as well, if I put my mind to it. It is all about understanding what the other person wants as well as his/her vulnerabilities. You offer the first and hint at the second. In the best cases, you get what really is a win-win situation, though it may require a little arm-twisting.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

As far as types? I have no idea, and I can tell you why: I don't think about MBTI much (if at all) outside of forums. It's a fun toy that can be useful to spur insight and self-discovery. Outside of that I don't see much utility in it other than making you feel good for fitting in a box. I take each person as they are in a case by case nature. Putting people in type boxes would be limiting.

Are we some fun toys ??

Yes putting people in type boxes is limiting when we make generalities about "manipulative type".

Each type can manipulate with its own strengths. So a T will use ideas, an F feelings and so on.

As [MENTION=22814]doppelganger[/MENTION] said NT are not the bests with feelings ! They may be the best to control them unconsciously and naturally.
I'm working on my own feelings, but I used to ignore them.

I'm great at defending myself as I'll point any illogical stuff.
I'd suck at manipulating others' feeling and that does not interest me. Loss of time and of my precious energy.

To me manipulation is a weakness. If you try to manipulate me I'll not see you as a smart ass but as a person to avoid.
Manipulators don't create links, or share ideas, they simply look for (unhealthy) naive preys to suck they blood out of their veins.

 

[Betty Blue]

How do you do it? And how does what you do depend on the type you do it on--eg, T vs F, N vs S, etc? What types are the easiest to manipulate? And what types the hardest?

People manipulation is something that I imagine INTP's are lazy about. I doubt they'd care enough to bother in most situations. INTP's are generally pretty chill, they can be passive aggressive though and that can have it's spikes of manipulation. I don't see them carrying any kind of mission in regards to manipulating people though.

 

[Mal12345]

People manipulation is something that I imagine INTP's are lazy about. I doubt they'd care enough to bother in most situations. INTP's are generally pretty chill, they can be passive aggressive though and that can have it's spikes of manipulation. I don't see them carrying any kind of mission in regards to manipulating people though.

Too "lazy" to manipulate others? Or too unaware of how to do it? Or too unaware of what it means to manipulate others in reality?

 

[johnnyyukon]

Each type can manipulate with its own strengths. So a T will use ideas, an F feelings and so on.

NT are not the bests with feelings ! They may be the best to control them unconsciously and naturally.
I'm working on my own feelings, but I used to ignore them.

I could be wrong, but it seems that NTs, especially ENTxs, are actually very good at understanding feelings and knowing how to poke at them. Because their own feelings aren't as involved, it makes it even easier. True, we can suck at realizing/dealing with our OWN feelings, but others? Shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Betty Blue]

Too "lazy" to manipulate others? Or too unaware of how to do it? Or too unaware of what it means to manipulate others in reality?

A combination mostly the first and last of those options, INTP's can be pretty clever and crafty but they rarely manipulate 'reality' as you put it. I can see them writing about it quite proficiently if they took an interest.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

I could be wrong, but it seems that NTs, especially ENTxs, are actually very good at understanding feelings and knowing how to poke at them. Because their own feelings aren't as involved, it makes it even easier. True, we can suck at realizing/dealing with our OWN feelings, but others? Shooting fish in a barrel.

We understand each other, right ?

I understand others very easily and very quickly. Indeed, understanding does not mean one is involved.

Mind & heart are two distinct organs, and I perfectly know when my head is speaking and/or my heart is involved.

Due to my own story, I felt the NEED to explore my own feelings. It is a long story of mine...


One day, a friend of mine told me (the dude is an ENFP) : "Come on !!! Wake up !! How can you be so hard with yourself ?"

I could not believe what he had just said. It was so true... Then he added very firmly :" Do you realise that ? (looking at me straight in the eyes)"

I answered with a slight NO (but deep inside of course I knew it).

Then he took my hand and told me : "You are a woman, not a rugbyman or a catcher, so my advice as a friend is now :

Take in consideration your OWN feelings, it's impossible to keep on living as you do !"


This day, like some few others, was a key-moment when I got conscious I must work on MY feelings before to forget all of them

Yes, as an NT I can be hard with others sometimes (what my NF friends still say sometimes and I hate them telling me that !!).

But also many times with myself. By not paying attention to any deep feeling, by rationalizing too much when suffering (in the past).


I don't think I've manipulated some people. Or "just for some little stuffs", "for fun" (who DOESN'T ?), not for Big Machiavel Plans.

As an ENTP I'd say I'm able to manage my own feelings, have a lot of control over them (but it is much better than ignoring them),

and manipulate my OWN feelings*. I have changed for my well-being thanks to some people I trust enough to listen to them.


(*No, this one is not pleasant, it does not exist, let's be an alchemist. Et voilà how to turn bronze into gold.......)


Today, I'm so glad I've learnt that Ignoring feelings is as weak as only being focused one one's feelings !

When extremes meet...

 

[johnnyyukon]

I felt the NEED to explore my own feelings.

Do you mind sharing what techniques you use?

Funny thing, so I walk into this crystal/magick shop in Denver and talk to the owner for a while, I don't have enough cash on me to be these 5 quartz crystals and he basically cuts 50% off the price so I can afford them. And, although I'd only talked to him for 10 minutes, and don't recall revealing too much, he said "You're very hard on yourself, I can tell. Don't be."

It kinda hit me. He was absolutely right, but that was the first time anyone ever said it. They've said it since, and I usually say, "I know I know, I don't know how to stop though."

In some ways it's made me a better person with more integrity, but it gets out of control. I still suck at managing my feelings but the best things I've found so far are meditation and some intensive exercise. Helps get me out of my head more and into my body, where da feelings lie.

 

[Mal12345]

A combination mostly the first and last of those options, INTP's can be pretty clever and crafty but they rarely manipulate 'reality' as you put it. I can see them writing about it quite proficiently if they took an interest.

I was talking about what manipulation means in reality, in action, in actual doing of it, rather than merely knowing what it is. There is a vast distinction with the INTP type between knowing how to do something in theory and actually doing it.

ENTPs at my job are masters at manipulating the system and other people. I don't know how they do it, except in theory. I only know that it's something that's possible to do yet somehow beyond me.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

ENTPs at my job are masters at manipulating the system and other people. I don't know how they do it, except in theory. I only know that it's something that's possible to do yet somehow beyond me.

I don't know which kind of job you are doing so I can't speak about details.

All I can say about my own situation : I hate control. I naturally find solutions others don't think of because I can't stand routine, authority and constraints.
People love me or hate me at work (and elsewhere maybe !) :
When I've made up my mind not to respect a rule because it's stupid, or not to talk to this one because I don't wanna lose my time, one can't easily make me change my mind.
I've been fired so many times (+ my so subtype is in 3rd position) and did not give a damn because I know I was right !

This is not manipulation, it's just avoiding shit !

 

[johnnyyukon]

I was talking about what manipulation means in reality, in action, in actual doing of it, rather than merely knowing what it is. There is a vast distinction with the INTP type between knowing how to do something in theory and actually doing it.

ENTPs at my job are masters at manipulating the system and other people. I don't know how they do it, except in theory. I only know that it's something that's possible to do yet somehow beyond me.

I went to a small, highly credited interactive media school of about 200 students, and when I left I was told that "You manipulated everyone in that building."

Haha. I suppose it's because I have the gift of gab and can connect with just about anyone, including the owners, teachers, and administrators. Playfully flirt, compliment the women, and respected by the men. I was generally pleasant, but also not a pushover, and would speak my mind to whoever if I felt I was in the right.

And I guess the girl that said that meant that I got the classes I wanted, I simply skipped many of the ones that were total bullshit and passed anyway, and, well I'm not sure.

I think the combination of being likeable, respected (giving respect too), and quickly connecting with a deeper part of a person, allowed me to get away with more. And also giving extra attention to the people with the most power, also known as "kissing ass" but that's not really what I did (maybe a little). Just schmoozed with them. I've never feared authority, so that shit doesn't intimidate me.

I dunno, I just understand human systems. Same thing happened at an office I worked at. But I've tooted my own horn enough.

 

[Mal12345]

Ok, so we have the ENTP 7/8 sx/sp type who says it's not manipulation, and the ENTP 7w8 sp/sx who likes to dabble in manipulation once in a while, including everybody in an entire building...