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  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Default The Inferior Function and Object Relations

    Recently going over Beebe's Integrity In Depth, I notice on p. 87 he points out:
    “Finding the anima was for Jung like finding the possibility of having an Anne Elliot within [From Jane Austen's Persuasion, who maintained both "amiability" in going along with her family's rejection of her fiancé, but then maintained the "constancy" to still be in love with him later], to manage the chaotic world of internal object relations in a conscious and coordinated way.”

    I suddenly took note of the concept of “object” relations, and this helped me understand “Jung often spoke of the anima as his bridge to the Self”, (or “the unconscious”), as I had always heard. Or, “the face we show to the unconscious” as it was specifically put to me once. This mirroring the Persona being “the face we show to the [conscious] outer world”.


    “Objects” are images of people that remain within us, and we often filter our relations with other people through. The theory [of Melanie Klein] focuses on infancy, and a “good breast” that satisfies the child, in contrast to a “bad breast” that forms when nursing is withheld.

    I’m not sure whether “objects” would be classified as kinds of “complexes” themselves; they seem opposite, in a way. Complexes, as I've mentioned before (Understanding Complexes), are miniscule senses of “I” within the psyche; like alternate “subjects”. “Object” is in this sense the opposite of “subject”; you know, like in “objective/subjective”. So I’m not sure if these would be considered unconscious senses of “I”; they’re more like unconscious senses of “you” or “they” that get projected out.

    This helps understand stuff I’ve been experiencing internally, and also express how this works for all types through the inferior function.

    Like one internal “object” for me is of my father speaking to me about “life” and dealing with people, often all coldly and authoritatively.
    So this “object” comes up anytime I hear authoritative pontificating on something, or justification of the way things are.


    So what happens, is [as a TP] I respond to this inner object through a Fe anima that introjects the values expressed by others, and is totally hypersensitive to their expressed emotional states,feeling obligated by them.

    But, if they run counter to ego’s Ti sense of order, then I resist, but still with this heavy sense of guilt(which fuels stronger and stronger resistance), and projecting the internal critical father object onto them.


    So when the anima feels threatened by object, I figure the Hero/Persona then tries to fight against the object in the outer world with logic, but this doesn’t work in the inner world.


    So to extend this to how it must work for the other types:


    TJ Persona approaches the external world with external sense of logical order. Fi anima approaches inner objects by personally relating, and the person feels their “integrity” is being questioned. Ego resists by sticking with logical decision, which “speaks for itself”.


    FP Persona
    approaches external world through personally identifying. Anima approaches internal objects through external sense of logical order. Because of the dominant worldview, they might be less likely to resist, and thus go along with Te.


    FJ Persona
    approaches external world through external sense of interpersonal order. Anima approaches internal objects through internal sense of logical order. They may or may not resist, depending on the objective standard. Ti may see it as compatible with its sense of order, and then they will internalize the external threat.


    SP Persona
    approaches outer world through focus on emergent tangible detail. Anima approaches internal objects through storehouse of invisible patterns. [not really sure how they react to Ni, but I guess it might be similar to how Si reacts].


    SJ Persona
    approaches outer objects through focus on internal storehouse of tangible details. Anima approaches inner objects through emergent invisible patterns. Ego will feel exposed to nebulous random information, and will resist by sticking with known facts.


    NP Persona
    approaches outer world through emergent external patterns and meanings. Anima approaches inner objects through internal storehouse of tangible facts. Ego will feel bound, and demand freedom.


    NJ Persona
    will approach outer objects through internal storehouse of intangible patterns and meanings. Anima will approach inner objects through emergent tangible detail. Ego will feel it has no framework to understand things through.

    So does this ring true for anyone else?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Concepts of anima and persona isnt tied to type like that. I mean sure persona exhibits your type to some level, but type itself isnt equal to persona(or anima).

    Persona is the face/character we show to others(how we relate to other people to basically get what we want the way we know), some of it is unconscious(we show things to other people without realizing that we show them, those are also part of our persona). Sure our dominant/aux functions are a big part of what we show to others, but for example a Ti dom doesent have Ti persona, but their persona often is seen by others as logical etc. that come from having Ti dom. Also persona can show influences of all other functions, but usually its most about our differentiated functions, because those are what we use the most obviously to others. Persona is latin and means a mask of an actor(back in the days actors wore a mask for their character that they played), which pretty much sums it all.

    Anima is the opposite of persona in the sense that its not about relating to others(external world), but how we relate to our unconscious. Anima is not equal to unconscious or functions that are unconscious, its just a way of relating to those things. How anima ties to inferior function(and also to other functions but in lesser degree) is part of the general idea of how the unconscious functions in jungian sense. Basically with all things that are unconscious, they are tied to other things that are also unconscious(to some its tied more directly, like different things inside a complex and to others in more roundabout ways). Because inferior function is quite undifferentiated(not separated from other things that are unconscious, thus not compatible with how ego processes things), its tied to other things in the unconscious, this makes it sort of the "door to the unconscious"(this is the same with other functions that are unconscious, but to lesser degree, because they are more differentiated) and when you do walk through the door, its about relating to the things in the unconscious, which is where anima comes into play, because its the way in which we relate to the unconscious. Anima is not the unconscious as i mentioned, but its the way in which the unconscious lives. Anima is also latin and translates to “a current of air, wind, air, breath, the vital principle, life, soul”, which also sums it up pretty well.

    How anima relates to romantic things is quite simple. Basically when we see someone whose persona is similar to our anima, we feel attraction to that person, because it evokes something in us that seeks to come into surface, but is unable to due to ego blocking what is not sees as compatible with it. So it tries to come into surface through another person because the Self tries to compensate with this sort of stuff that the ego wont let through. But the thing is that if you have mastered your own anima to some extend, it might brake the need for this sort of compensation(or at least hinder it to some degree), in which the mate selection becomes more from Will than anima pulling you to that direction without you having a choice.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    How anima relates to romantic things is quite simple. Basically when we see someone whose persona is similar to our anima, we feel attraction to that person, because it evokes something in us that seeks to come into surface, but is unable to due to ego blocking what is not sees as compatible with it.
    Anima (for males)/animus (for us women) is a very interesting concept developed by Jung. It is about archetypes.
    Each of us project the anima/animous on the mother/father 1st.

    It is the powerful creative and vital force of the psyché.
    We meet them in dreams (see the dream thread it is quite revealing

    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

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    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    The consequences of a negative Anima.
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Concepts of anima and persona isnt tied to type like that. I mean sure persona exhibits your type to some level, but type itself isnt equal to persona(or anima).

    Persona is the face/character we show to others(how we relate to other people to basically get what we want the way we know), some of it is unconscious(we show things to other people without realizing that we show them, those are also part of our persona). Sure our dominant/aux functions are a big part of what we show to others, but for example a Ti dom doesent have Ti persona, but their persona often is seen by others as logical etc. that come from having Ti dom. Also persona can show influences of all other functions, but usually its most about our differentiated functions, because those are what we use the most obviously to others. Persona is latin and means a mask of an actor(back in the days actors wore a mask for their character that they played), which pretty much sums it all.

    Anima is the opposite of persona in the sense that its not about relating to others(external world), but how we relate to our unconscious. Anima is not equal to unconscious or functions that are unconscious, its just a way of relating to those things. How anima ties to inferior function(and also to other functions but in lesser degree) is part of the general idea of how the unconscious functions in jungian sense. Basically with all things that are unconscious, they are tied to other things that are also unconscious(to some its tied more directly, like different things inside a complex and to others in more roundabout ways). Because inferior function is quite undifferentiated(not separated from other things that are unconscious, thus not compatible with how ego processes things), its tied to other things in the unconscious, this makes it sort of the "door to the unconscious"(this is the same with other functions that are unconscious, but to lesser degree, because they are more differentiated) and when you do walk through the door, its about relating to the things in the unconscious, which is where anima comes into play, because its the way in which we relate to the unconscious. Anima is not the unconscious as i mentioned, but its the way in which the unconscious lives. Anima is also latin and translates to “a current of air, wind, air, breath, the vital principle, life, soul”, which also sums it up pretty well.

    How anima relates to romantic things is quite simple. Basically when we see someone whose persona is similar to our anima, we feel attraction to that person, because it evokes something in us that seeks to come into surface, but is unable to due to ego blocking what is not sees as compatible with it. So it tries to come into surface through another person because the Self tries to compensate with this sort of stuff that the ego wont let through. But the thing is that if you have mastered your own anima to some extend, it might brake the need for this sort of compensation(or at least hinder it to some degree), in which the mate selection becomes more from Will than anima pulling you to that direction without you having a choice.
    I wasn't really saying type was equal to the Persona (or anima; or that the anima was the unconscious). I was in fact understanding it just as you described. Persona and anima are complexes (lesser senses of "I") that will often reflect the associated function. (type is just the preference of the ego, itself).

    So what do you think about the inner "objects" (which is the real point)? Have you heard of that theory. I take it, they would just be among the "things that are unconscious" that you mentioned?
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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I wasn't really saying type was equal to the Persona (or anima; or that the anima was the unconscious). I was in fact understanding it just as you described. Persona and anima are complexes (lesser senses of "I") that will often reflect the associated function. (type is just the preference of the ego, itself).

    So what do you think about the inner "objects" (which is the real point)? Have you heard of that theory. I take it, they would just be among the "things that are unconscious" that you mentioned?
    It wasnt clear what you were saying in op, thats why i added some details. Like you talked about TJ etc persona, even tho there isnt such thing as TJ persona, its just that TJs can often have similarities in their persona. And one TJ might have persona that seems more like FP.

    I think this:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/objectrelations.html
    An external object is an actual person, place or thing that a person has invested with emotional energy.

    An internal object is one person's representation of another, such as a reflection of the child's way of relating to the mother. It is a memory, idea, or fantasy about a person, place, or thing..(Some writers, like Melanie Klein, use the term "object" without always stating whether it refers to a person or an inner representation.)
    And i dont think the inner object is unconscious necessarily, but it can be unconscious or conscious, often a mixture of both. I mean you dont perceive anything as it really is anyways, therefore i dont think its often relevant to separate between inner and outer object.
    @ExNinjaTropPervertie yea i know, also i should add that anima is often seen as someone of opposite sex in dreams(namely because of the compensation thing i mentioned and because our own gender is so strongly tied to our persona/ego and anima is the opposite from persona, so we see it as different gender)
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  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    It wasnt clear what you were saying in op, thats why i added some details. Like you talked about TJ etc persona, even tho there isnt such thing as TJ persona, its just that TJs can often have similarities in their persona. And one TJ might have persona that seems more like FP.
    Well, I was going by the notion that the Persona would mot likely be somehow involved in the preferred perspective (though I guess that should really be the dominant; I made it both dominant and auxiliary. But then the aux will often come up in the dominant agenda; that's why it's "auxiliary").

    Even if a TJ puts on a FP Persona (I can think of ENTJ's who put on FJ personas; they'll take on any behavior to met their goals), it's still somehow serving a Te agenda (even if they make it look like Fi or Fe, or whatever, to everyone else).
    And i dont think the inner object is unconscious necessarily, but it can be unconscious or conscious, often a mixture of both. I mean you dont perceive anything as it really is anyways, therefore i dont think its often relevant to separate between inner and outer object.
    To me, it seems something that started unconscious, but I've been bringing it into consciousness. The feelings we get from dealing with it are conscious, but we're really not naturally thinking of it as a separate "object".

    Still, do you think the anima will be what we relate to the inner object through? (hence, separating it from an external object. They have to be separate, because clearly, that representation we have of the outer person is not the outer person, and when we treat it as such, we often end up acting unfairly to the person. "a memory, idea, or fantasy" is certainly different from the reality).
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    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Yes, I had wondered if Anima/Animus was tied to the dual functions. It makes sense, at least on a simple level.

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, I was going by the notion that the Persona would mot likely be somehow involved in the preferred perspective (though I guess that should really be the dominant; I made it both dominant and auxiliary. But then the aux will often come up in the dominant agenda; that's why it's "auxiliary").

    Even if a TJ puts on a FP Persona (I can think of ENTJ's who put on FJ personas; they'll take on any behavior to met their goals), it's still somehow serving a Te agenda (even if they make it look like Fi or Fe, or whatever, to everyone else).
    But persona is the character how the person meets the expectations of the external world(mask of an actor), not about agendas of functions. And it involves so many more things than just functions, like persona can be intimidating, childlike or accepting etc.

    "The persona, for Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual"." - Persona (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Then ofc there are many different type of personas in most people, like a doctor can have a doctor persona at their work, but not all doctors continue that role when they are with their family(although in some cases the doctor persona can continue on their free time, but thats quite unhealthy thing to do if you always act like a doctor should even if you are with your kids). Or if you take myself as an example when i was doing customer service work, the persona i put on with customers(and also my boss and some co-workers) isnt the same persona i have on with my friends.



    To me, it seems something that started unconscious, but I've been bringing it into consciousness. The feelings we get from dealing with it are conscious, but we're really not naturally thinking of it as a separate "object".

    Still, do you think the anima will be what we relate to the inner object through? (hence, separating it from an external object. They have to be separate, because clearly, that representation we have of the outer person is not the outer person, and when we treat it as such, we often end up acting unfairly to the person. "a memory, idea, or fantasy" is certainly different from the reality).
    Inner object is the persons own impression of the external object(where the external object is the actual thing that we have the impression of). Like i already said on the quote about it. Some of these podcasts dealt with this topic(also anima persona and pretty much everything), but i cant remember which one was it jungian's Podcast

    I dont think its good to think it as anima, because even tho the inner object may be affected by anima to a degree, its also much more. Anima is not a thing, its how we relate to a thing, an attitude we have towards our unconscious/shadow. Just like Ti and Te are not different things, but T is the thing and Ti and Te are different attitudes towards T. Except maybe a personification(like a dream image) of anima could be called a thing, but its a way of relating to inner self(to our personal unconscious or shadow)



    I dont really know what else to say about this, but listen the podcasts, they are definitely worth it
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  10. #10
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But persona is the character how the person meets the expectations of the external world(mask of an actor), not about agendas of functions. And it involves so many more things than just functions, like persona can be intimidating, childlike or accepting etc.

    "The persona, for Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual"." - Persona (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Then ofc there are many different type of personas in most people, like a doctor can have a doctor persona at their work, but not all doctors continue that role when they are with their family(although in some cases the doctor persona can continue on their free time, but thats quite unhealthy thing to do if you always act like a doctor should even if you are with your kids). Or if you take myself as an example when i was doing customer service work, the persona i put on with customers(and also my boss and some co-workers) isnt the same persona i have on with my friends.
    It sounds like part of what you're saying is a generic definition of “persona”.

    I was thinking in terms of this part:

    “Before the persona has been differentiated from the ego, the persona is experienced as individuality. In fact, as a social identity on the one hand and an ideal image on the other, there is little individual about it. It is, as its name implies, only a mask of the collective psyche, a mask that feigns individuality, making others and oneself believe that one is individual, whereas one is simply acting a role through which the collective psyche speaks.”

    That I would see as involving the dominant standpoint, usually (since it's then associated with the ego, which is what the dominant function preference forms around).

    I dont think its good to think it as anima, because even tho the inner object may be affected by anima to a degree, its also much more. Anima is not a thing, its how we relate to a thing, an attitude we have towards our unconscious/shadow. Just like Ti and Te are not different things, but T is the thing and Ti and Te are different attitudes towards T. Except maybe a personification(like a dream image) of anima could be called a thing, but its a way of relating to inner self(to our personal unconscious or shadow)
    But since it deals with the unconscious, wouldn't that somehow come to include the internal objects?
    Last edited by Eric B; 10-02-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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