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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Describing INFP's Si Tertiary

    While the rest of the forum is still trying to define for themselves the difference between Ni and Ne, I'd like to do a bit of discussing about Si tertiary.

    Theory:

    Si-tertiary is a characteristic of the INFP and INTP types, that is, those that have Ne-auxiliary. The tertiary of any type will be the exact opposite of the auxiliary of the dominant type.

    Si-tertiary behaves differently depending on which of the two types is dominant. If Fi is dominant, then the Si-aux will show itself in ways that expresses the personal values (or as Carl Jung would say, the subjective values) of Fi. When I say personal or subjective values, I mean that these values were thought up by the valuing subject, not that they are subjectively random or arbitrary. This is in contrast to the Fe type for whom values are objective, socially derived and conforming to the values of the external individual or group.

    Application:

    The healthy INFP will be socially charming, outgoing (although in a self-adjusting way) as well as politically and socially conservative. This helps lend this subjectivist type a feeling of internal structure as well as a way to support his internal life through externalization of personal values, that is, a virtuous goal to achieve or cause to support. Thus there will be a sense of group or brand loyalty with this INFP, but not of the kind that expects loyalty in return in the healthy INFP. Since Si is a tertiary type, it won't be highly developed even when the INFP is healthy. So they will be loyalists to a fault, more-or-less self-defeating at it, only far less so than the unhealthy INFP. And so Si tertiary will cause the INFP to keep "taking it on the chin" and behaving like a lovable doormat long past the point where loyal devotedness should have ended. But the healthier the INFP, the more self-sacrificing he is in a way that makes him or her heroic in the eyes of others, although the healthy INFP remains ever humble, and humbled.

    The average INFP is still charming and outgoing, but a certain manipulativeness is seen in this type. Having lost a certain amount of self-acceptance, this trait arises from a desire to be accepted by others. Average INFPs can use their innate understanding of how other people tick in ways that are less than healthy. Having lost self-esteem for whatever reason, the average INFP begins looking for self-worth in the eyes of others. The manipulativeness of the average INFP is a form of control over others which is enabled by Si-tertiary. The latter also arises to aid the INFP as he or she seeks security in the tribe or external cause. This is an anxious type, and manipulating (controlling) others while being other-determined keeps the anxiety at bay.

    The unhealthy INFP has begun to lose all self-acceptance while at the same time demanding acceptance from others. Si-tertiary begins to turn toward outright hostility as a form of controlling others and away from the mere manipulativeness of the average INFP.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default

    36 views, no replies. Apparently those views are just quick glances and then browsing away to find something shorter and easier to read here.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Default

    Or perhaps they simply have no comment they desire to share. No need to insult.

    I have a number of thoughts...

    First, I am not sure I understand what you mean by a healthy INFP being socially and politically conservative. If you mean in views, I don't know why their type preferences would necessarily fill that content in for them. Type is more about form than content. If you mean in terms of being relatively reserved in both social and political action, then I tend to agree, though I think it is common for them to have a few causes about which they tend to be more outspoken and active.

    I do agree that average INFPs can be manipulative in terms of seeking affirmation from others, but I would not tend to use the word control - I do not think the average NFP tends to seek explicit control, finding it stressful to maintain. Rather, I think there is just a push to hear from others that they are worthwhile, because the amount of subjectivity and abstraction in the INFP's mindset makes it difficult to feel certain of static external attributes, like other people liking them, and as a consequence of the "floatiness" of their inner world, they seek periodic reinforcement. I think stronger Si usage can help ameliorate this tendency, creating more static perceptions for the INFP to rely on.

    In addition to these facets, I think Si plays a huge part in Fi development and implementation, in terms of how INFPs decide what they value and how to recreate the conditions for it in their life. I think many INFPs and some ENFPs - and NTPs as well - also have a surprising touch of nostalgia and stubbornness for what they know, in contrast to Ne novelty seeking. I think in the introverted types, it comes out as a sort of stasis, a tendency towards inertia unless pushed strongly otherwise. I see it frequently in both my INTP father and myself. We are both novelty seekers in some senses, and surprisingly resistant to change in others.

    As a slightly off-topic aside,

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Or perhaps they simply have no comment they desire to share. No need to insult.
    I don't see that as insulting, I'm just disgusted with how quiet this forum is most of the time when it comes to intelligent typological discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I have a number of thoughts...

    First, I am not sure I understand what you mean by a healthy INFP being socially and politically conservative. If you mean in views, I don't know why their type preferences would necessarily fill that content in for them. Type is more about form than content. If you mean in terms of being relatively reserved in both social and political action, then I tend to agree, though I think it is common for them to have a few causes about which they tend to be more outspoken and active.
    I was hoping someone would ask me about that. The INFP is not a radical type. So by "conservative" I really mean "mainstream," as it is a relaxed, go-with-the-flow type. An INFP would have to be seriously psychologically damaged to do anything like commit arson or something like that in support of a social cause. But they don't typically "own" the negative and destructive aspects of their psyches. A typical blow-up only lasts a few seconds to a few minutes, after which they're like, "Uh, that wasn't me you just saw," or "that person you just saw is not who I am." Distancing themselves from these negatives is a way of protecting their self-esteem from cognitive dissonance and the negative views of those who psychologically support them.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I do agree that average INFPs can be manipulative in terms of seeking affirmation from others, but I would not tend to use the word control - I do not think the average NFP tends to seek explicit control,
    That would be the unhealthy INFP, as stated in the OP. Explicit controlling would occur during something that could be called a psychotic episode or maybe even a fugue, because explicit control over others goes so far against their self-image and the image of themselves they wish to see reflected in the eyes of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    finding it stressful to maintain. Rather, I think there is just a push to hear from others that they are worthwhile, because the amount of subjectivity and abstraction in the INFP's mindset makes it difficult to feel certain of static external attributes, like other people liking them, and as a consequence of the "floatiness" of their inner world, they seek periodic reinforcement. I think stronger Si usage can help ameliorate this tendency, creating more static perceptions for the INFP to rely on.

    In addition to these facets, I think Si plays a huge part in Fi development and implementation, in terms of how INFPs decide what they value and how to recreate the conditions for it in their life. I think many INFPs and some ENFPs - and NTPs as well - also have a surprising touch of nostalgia and stubbornness for what they know, in contrast to Ne novelty seeking. I think in the introverted types, it comes out as a sort of stasis, a tendency towards inertia unless pushed strongly otherwise. I see it frequently in both my INTP father and myself. We are both novelty seekers in some senses, and surprisingly resistant to change in others.
    Thanks, I love everything you're saying here. STASIS is a particularly important concept as, in the logical scheme of things, a complete stasis is where all mental disease ends up. A real example of that would be the business owner who worked for 30 years straight without a day off or vacation, and then one morning he woke up and found that he could not will his legs to move to get out of bed. (That would especially suck if he had to go to the bathroom really bad.) In terms of Fi, it means a complete lack of feeling-values where the motivator that keeps the INFP's value system in motion completely stops, due perhaps to some emotional trauma or complete emotional fatigue resulting in a major depressive episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    As a slightly off-topic aside,
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #5
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    The INFP is not a radical type. So by "conservative" I really mean "mainstream," as it is a relaxed, go-with-the-flow type.
    Could you explain a bit more about this?
    .
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    Could you explain a bit more about this?
    Do you have a specific question I can try to answer? What do you mean by "this"?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Do you have a specific question I can to answer? What do you mean by "this"?
    Your statement that I quoted.
    .
    | | | If it is god who makes man, this is the devil finishing touches | | |
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    Your statement that I quoted.
    What about it did you have in mind?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #9
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    What about it did you have in mind?
    I'm just trying to understand more about how INFPs are theoretically described here in this area alone.
    .
    | | | If it is god who makes man, this is the devil finishing touches | | |
    .

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    I'm just trying to understand more about how INFPs are theoretically described here in this area alone.
    From the OP: "Si-aux will show itself in ways that express the personal values (or as Carl Jung would say, the subjective values) of Fi." What is Si in general? It is a subjective-sensation function, meaning that the sensations (which aren't emotions) have an internal source, a kind of "sixth sense" if you will. (An objective-sensation source would be any of the usual five senses.)

    Objective reality is imbued by Si with subjective sensations and the meanings that are attached to them. These meanings have a concrete, symbolic, representational reference point. A good example would be those who see representations of Jesus in burnt pieces of toast.
    22 People Who Found Jesus In Their Food
    It's not that others wouldn't be able to see the pictures of Jesus, but they would have no symbolical reference for them as subjective (i.e., religious) truths. And such truths will be considered to be objective by Si because it doesn't in itself possess the ability to distinguish fact from fiction, just as, when we are asleep and dreaming, we naturally hold the dream we are in to be real until we wake up. This means that the more dominant the Si function is over the rational function, the more easily a person will be duped by faith healers and such. Where the rational function is stronger, or is dominant over the Si function, Si takes a subordinate role in searching for objective meaning, and Si becomes merely a subjective source of information that it really is. Subjective sensations are then reduced to the level of mere fascination with or intense interest in symbols. They are not confused with the objectively real.

    The INFP won't usually be aware of the role that Si-tertiary takes in his or her subconscious dealings with their subjective values, so there is no way for the INFP to know that Si is in some unconscious way determining his or her value-judgments. INFPs layer over objective reality some subjectively-derived sensation-meaning which causes them to take things personally in an objective sense which, in reality, were not meant to be taken personally at all. The personal value-meaning of the Fi is subconsciously imbued with a sensation-meaning that has objective reality to the INFP. For example, the INFP may be a champion of certain social causes, where insulting the social cause will be taken as a personal insult by the INFP.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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