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  1. #71
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post



    Besides, we are all flawed, and no good comes of hate.
    Beautifully spoken. Thank you.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #72
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Beautifully spoken. Thank you.

  3. #73
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Think, doesn't mean that it is.

    A very common misnomer about quantum mechanics (a term that is way to frequently hijacked) is that the observer means a person. There is no human element to quantum mechanics as many want there to be. It merely speaks to atomic and subatomic particles. Once you scale up beyond that, the laws that government no longer have an effect. Well, they do, but they are completely statistically insignificant on larger bodies. It's sort of difficult to understand/appreciate unless you have taken a course in it or have the math background to learn it, and it is very easy to wrongfully "humanize" since it is inheriently non-intuitive and complex.
    Nah, I'm not trying to humanize it. I've been reading about it and that's the interpretation of many people, scientists included; the question is, what does that really mean. It obviously doesn't mean that reality is created by humans or living things since it was there before living things existed (and to postulate some sort of discarnate entity "creating" the universe/s with perception seems ad hoc); but it does mean that the act of perception, however it is actualized, has an effect on the physical world. I don't want to get into a debate about it, just playfully pointing out that this is a valid perspective on it. Whatever I mean by what I say is probably not 100% what you think it is.

    Though I trust that you may know much more about some aspects of it than I.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    because society serves the individual, not the other way around.
    It's not quite that simple. They are interdependent, meaning it doesn't just go one way. The group/system wouldn't exist without the actions and contributions of the individuals, so the quality of the group depends on what is put into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Society is a giant marketplace, a more efficient means of taking advantage of division of labor. people like to act like it's this giant kumbaya family, but it's all bullshit (family is a group of people you feel close personal bonds with. not people you don't know personally). the idea that I should sacrifice my well being for something that I initially invested in for the sake of personal gain would be like an investor caring more about the stocks he is invested in than his own wellbeing and holding on to them while they are losing money.

    when I do make personal sacrifices, it is because I feel compelled to. there is no "should" when it comes to personal sacrifice
    Agreed. But a lot of people do feel compelled to make personal sacrifices for a perceived whole with which they feel a personal bond, so there must be something to the instinct. I don't think either way is more right than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    believing you know what's best for me isn't the problem. the problem is:
    1) you rarely ever do (I've met plenty of NFJs who claimed to understand Fi users...they've all missed the mark)
    2) that's not the point. even if they did know what was better for me, I'd rather they just make a suggestion. no one gets to act like my mother and obligate me to do what's best for me (even my real mother). NFJs in particular seem to lack a sense of what is/is not their business, which is a tendency I find very arrogant, disrespectful and, at times, controlling (albeit usually with a velvet glove)
    True. So do you think then that most people who do things that objectively aren't good for them just want to make their own mistakes/choices or they aren't aware of their actions? I think it's both, but probably more one than the other with some people. I think an INFJ's tendency to try to "fix" other people's mistakes comes from their fear of failing, so they just can't stand to see someone else do something they fear doing whether that results in failure or not.

  4. #74
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    True. So do you think then that most people who do things that objectively aren't good for them just want to make their own mistakes/choices or they aren't aware of their actions? I think it's both, but probably more one than the other with some people. I think an INFJ's tendency to try to "fix" other people's mistakes comes from their fear of failing, so they just can't stand to see someone else do something they fear doing whether that results in failure or not.
    I have also read in some INFJ descriptions that they can offer advice and be offended when others don't heed it.

    I haven't ever had an INFJ do that to me, and most of the time I'm non-controlling to a fault. I need to be more controlling with my music students but I end up with a reputation for being really easy because it's really hard for me to pressure people because I feel whatever negativity I instill in them. I think this need to offer advice must be the Fe part of the personality and it would be shared with all FJs? The more focused a person is on their perceiving function, Ni, the less likely they would be to assert anything onto others. The INFJs who I've talked with, even when I was in a mixed up and destructive scenario, were never forceful or judgmental. Some of the especially strong INFJs here were quiet gentle about it, asking questions, clearly stating their perspective, but not in a way that felt at all like I was being criticized. I've also hung out on a couple of INFJ forums and only encountered one noticeable control freak, but that person had psychological issues outside of personality type.

    In my own life I find my Ni-Ti loop to be very detached, disconnected, and non-judgmental about the world. My Fe-Se loop can end up mirroring this somehow in the concrete world in which it is on the opposite end of the spectrum of the attached and visceral, but also momentary and impossible to judge. Aren't we perceivers just as surely as an ENFP, but just more inward, serious, structured?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #75
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Because they breathe?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    True. So do you think then that most people who do things that objectively aren't good for them just want to make their own mistakes/choices or they aren't aware of their actions? I think it's both, but probably more one than the other with some people. I think an INFJ's tendency to try to "fix" other people's mistakes comes from their fear of failing, so they just can't stand to see someone else do something they fear doing whether that results in failure or not.
    Most people who do things that objectively are not good for them are not thinking objectively, and may not even value objectivity. They prioritize gratification in the moment, and sometimes are unwilling to expend the effort or self-discipline to get that objectively greater good. The world is full of such people, and it is always frustrating to encounter one up close.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #77
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most people who do things that objectively are not good for them are not thinking objectively, and may not even value objectivity. They prioritize gratification in the moment, and sometimes are unwilling to expend the effort or self-discipline to get that objectively greater good. The world is full of such people, and it is always frustrating to encounter one up close.
    I think that's true. So wouldn't it follow that often people who are more able to think objectively can point out the things they are doing that don't work too well? So since INFJ's can think objectively in certain respects they would have this ability. I think what @Elfboy is getting at is that they value subjective decision making as as much a part of their well being as the objective stuff (does that sound accurate, Elfboy?), and more objective thinkers wouldn't see that and so think they are really helping. I can see both sides but I know I tend to err on the side of being too critical.

  8. #78
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Sure, ok, but this is going off on a distracting tangent from what I and coriolis were saying.
    Is it a distracting tangent, or is it a simple fact that is overlooked?

  9. #79
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Because they breathe?
    I attempted to get people to stop hating me by holding my breath, and it worked! But only for 1-3 minutes at a time.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #80
    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    I don't hate INFJs. One of my best friends is an INFJ. She's kind of a selfish bitch though, (ignores me when I could use some support and stops talking to me whenever she gets a boyfriend, while I'm always there to listen to her drama and help her out), but I don't hate her enough to end our friendship.
    Ewww is the new sexy


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