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  1. #231
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hel View Post
    I'm glad everyone is exploring this but I don't think I did a very good job. I think what I brought up was my focus on a subject that had been brought up by others but that no one else was concerned with in the same way I am. So this was never about generalizations in the way that I made it specifically. From the start this thread hasn't been about a lot of things that it was made into. But we let it become what people needed it to be and worked it out because it was necessary. But if we aren't going to address it in the way that I've specified then let's not pretend it's something it's not. I'm not saying we have to address it in my way, of course. Just that the precedent has been set for that already in this thread.

    My point is people aren't concerned with generalizing in this thread in the same way I am. And they don't have to be. But it's important to acknowledge that they're not.
    i appreciate that sociological perspective, but to me, the underlying energy of ideologies is rooted in needs that are more close to home. i think working directly with these is the most constructive way of unraveling the identifications that are ideology's hooks.

    especially when someone feels victimized or burdened by the actual experience. to at the same time ask such a person to take responsibility for their internalized viewpoints and the baggage of that is sometimes too much if one really wants to be constructive (sometimes rooted in a feeling of being owed something). this point is exactly where both sides of this discussion, to me, are arriving at. at some point, the personal does need to come first, and the effort to hold that in focus is helpful for kind of getting to the root of the problem. environments in which people feel like they are afraid to speak bc they know they have internalized shit that isn't perfect don't really help us get to the core conflict that we could work on most directly (when the deepest, most liberated action starts with the self). if the people don't come first, we're just dealing with like iteration 87 and only dealing with splinters.

    at the same time, depending on who shows up, the needs of the most immediate situation do change. and you know, when someone is bringing real baggage with them and it's not heard, and there are some major empathy fails, and no one is inquiring for some of those whose viewpoints and challenging situations were part of it too, there is much unresolved. perhaps there should be another thread for that, and for the challenges of dealing with mental illness at home and in being supportive of the larger advocacy strategies that could improve the situation for many throughout our society. i don't know where you're coming from, but maybe you could share some of your actual experience or concerns more directly from where you're actually at. to me, you have helped facilitate, bc for what it's worth, you seem to bring additional focus on more indirect concerns and health of spaces in a way that vibes with Fe somewhat, even if whom you're trying to protect in this situation is different/starts in a different place. however, i don't entirely follow your process, so i am really guessing as to what you need from this, and for what kind of positive change you are trying to contribute to/facilitate. i know for me, sometimes i definitely can benefit from having help being led into a path of experience that can improve my empathy with both real and abstracted characterizations of experience (why infps kind of own the novel ).

  2. #232
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    All discussion of voluntary/involuntary hospitalization for mental illness has been moved to a new thread. If you wish to comment on this topic, please go there.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #233
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    - Never brush their teeth
    - Fart in public with no shame
    - Play video-games all day under basement
    - Messiah complex
    5w4,4w5,1

    The Researcher
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  4. #234
    eye of the storm magpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i appreciate that sociological perspective, but to me, the underlying energy of ideologies is rooted in needs that are more close to home. i think working directly with these is the most constructive way of unraveling the identifications that are ideology's hooks.

    especially when someone feels victimized or burdened by the actual experience. to at the same time ask such a person to take responsibility for their internalized viewpoints and the baggage of that is sometimes too much if one really wants to be constructive (sometimes rooted in a feeling of being owed something). this point is exactly where both sides of this discussion, to me, are arriving at. at some point, the personal does need to come first, and the effort to hold that in focus is helpful for kind of getting to the root of the problem. environments in which people feel like they are afraid to speak bc they know they have internalized shit that isn't perfect don't really help us get to the core conflict that we could work on most directly (when the deepest, most liberated action starts with the self). if the people don't come first, we're just dealing with like iteration 87 and only dealing with splinters.

    at the same time, depending on who shows up, the needs of the most immediate situation do change. and you know, when someone is bringing real baggage with them and it's not heard, and there are some major empathy fails, and no one is inquiring for some of those whose viewpoints and challenging situations were part of it too, there is much unresolved. perhaps there should be another thread for that, and for the challenges of dealing with mental illness at home and in being supportive of the larger advocacy strategies that could improve the situation for many throughout our society. i don't know where you're coming from, but maybe you could share some of your actual experience or concerns more directly from where you're actually at. to me, you have helped facilitate, bc for what it's worth, you seem to bring additional focus on more indirect concerns and health of spaces in a way that vibes with Fe somewhat, even if whom you're trying to protect in this situation is different/starts in a different place. however, i don't entirely follow your process, so i am really guessing as to what you need from this, and for what kind of positive change you are trying to contribute to/facilitate. i know for me, sometimes i definitely can benefit from having help being led into a path of experience that can improve my empathy with both real and abstracted characterizations of experience (why infps kind of own the novel ).
    If you want to talk about this in more detail in PM, I'd be happier with that. In a general sense though I get the feeling that me having personal experience or relating to things personally devalues my opinions or perspective on this topic. I'm not trying to be owed things. In a way we have already allowed people their opinions and perspectives in this thread, even when they did not make complete sense or were a result of a misunderstanding. So we didn't owe people that, be we allowed them it. I know that I have strong feelings about this topic. But that doesn't mean that my point about generalizations in regard to this topic is wrong. It does mean though that I don't think it's what caused the conflict in this thread in the first place.

  5. #235
    Member her-space-holiday's Avatar
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    very few people hate me(I don't really waste my time interacting with people if I don't think it'll be worth it for either of us), but I think some people are rubbed the wrong way by :

    - a bit snobbish, when I was younger especially. My parents raised me on David Lynch, Neil Young,and fine cheese. I'm distracted constantly. I need something really weird and out there to grab me, I'm not actively avoiding popular stuff(..and I've eaten dinosaur chicken nuggets more than a grown adult should in the last few months)..I just have other things to pay attention to. also, I am a little bit of a snob but I would never look down on someone for liking different things. Just don't make me watch it.

    - Super friendly aloof person - see ya in six months, friendly acquaintance that I genuinely enjoy running into at social functions from time to time!

    - A bit neurotic. I'm really easygoing about a lot of stuff, come hang out at my place,friend, make a mess play some video games, I'll run to the store and you can just chill for a half hour while I get stuff to make dinner........and then have a nervous breakdown because that painting that I've been throwing out and starting all over again for the last two years will.never.be.perfect.

    - Back seat driver. To the max. I was a competitive showjumper and dressage rider, and straight lines, balanced turns, and really weird minute shit was drilled into my head. My car is older and a bit froggy, and if I feel like for whatever reason(low tires, whacked out alignment) I'm not driving as straight as possible in the middle of the road then I get genuinely anxious - though I am better with other people in the car so no one aside from my best friend knows the extent of this side of me.

    - Can be quick to state my judgements. It's not an end all be all. Morality is mostly relative to me, and if I state a blunt opinion about someone's choice or words then it's more out of a need for authentic, real conversation, and I love it when people try to change my mind. And if I find their argument better, more objective, or at least enough to realize the lack of objectivity in my opinion, then I will gladly concede. But I can unintentionally come off as more intense than how I actually feel about the matter.

    - Remember that neurotic perfectionist thing? Well I also have ADHD, so I run around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to find my stuff, and do everything at once, and then get frustrated and a little upset because I'm off task and not working as efficiently as I want to.

    - Self depreciating. But also a little smug.
    “I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more."
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  6. #236
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Guys: forget my conflict @hel. I'd ask you to drop me and Rex's conflicts. Go to town PM'ing whoever, but I'd ask you to drop it in this thread because it concerns me. It was charged from personal issues where I wasn't objective enough to respond appropriately enough. So chill.

  7. #237
    Member her-space-holiday's Avatar
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    drama lamas
    “I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more."

  8. #238
    eye of the storm magpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Guys: forget my conflict @hel. I'd ask you to drop me and Rex's conflicts. Go to town PM'ing whoever, but I'd ask you to drop it in this thread because it concerns me. It was charged from personal issues where I wasn't objective enough to respond appropriately enough. So chill.
    That is apparent. But the way I'm involved doesn't concern you, just like the way you're involved doesn't really concern me. This thread didn't start out about you and Rex but it turned into that and that conflict or response was validated. Now I'm having a response and would also like some validation. This isn't about you and Rex's conflict anymore, but it seems reasonable that this would be okay, judging from the fact that the thread itself didn't start out being about you and Rex's conflict either.

    Aka I've already dropped you and Rex's conflict because I was never involved in it in the first place. But that doesn't resolve anything else. Not everything in this thread concerns you. I'm allowed to have meaning from this thread, or at least, every single person who's entered this thread has derived meaning from it in their own way. And they've been allowed that. Also, I don't think I'm really being unchill.
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  9. #239
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hel View Post
    That is apparent. But the way I'm involved doesn't concern you, just like the way you're involved doesn't really concern me. This thread didn't start out about you and Rex but it turned into that and that conflict or response was validated. Now I'm having a response and would also like some validation. This isn't about you and Rex's conflict anymore, but it seems reasonable that this would be okay, judging from the fact that the thread itself didn't start out being about you and Rex's conflict either.

    Aka I've already dropped you and Rex's conflict because I was never involved in it in the first place. But that doesn't resolve anything else. Not everything in this thread concerns you. I'm allowed to have meaning from this thread, or at least, every single person who's entered this thread has derived meaning from it in their own way. And they've been allowed that. Also, I don't think I'm really being unchill.
    No of course not everything in this thread is about me, Thank God.

    Well, when you say
    Quote Originally Posted by hel View Post
    It does mean though that I don't think it's what caused the conflict in this thread in the first place.
    I'm pretty sure you don't mean stuff 2014 - before. What other conflict is there? Just pointing it out to let you know. Also, the thread's been split by Coriolis so that separate issue is gone from this thread for sure.

  10. #240
    eye of the storm magpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    No of course not everything in this thread is about me, Thank God.

    Well, when you say
    I'm pretty sure you don't mean stuff 2014 - before. What other conflict is there? Just pointing it out to let you know. Also, the thread's been split by Coriolis so that separate issue is gone from this thread for sure.
    I know it's gone. The reason I'm still talking about it here is because what I'm talking about is the way feelings and conflicts, I guess, have been addressed and validated in this thread (except mine). I really don't want to be part of the other thread and argue about that stuff because it's not something I'm interested in doing. What I'm still interested in is the way the initial comment about INFJs and mental institutions was validated as "weak Fi" and "hurts of the past," which I believe. But that doesn't explain the intervening posts. I don't want to debate the intervening posts, which is why I'm posting here. I just want to reflect about the trajectory of this thread.

    If people really believe that generalizations about that topic cause real life consequences, which seemed to be the case when so many liked my posts about that topic, then I want to know where all those intervening posts came from and I want people to take responsibility for their opinions. It isn't about owing me things. It's about people being honest with themselves and with me and not just for the sake of convenience. And also about actually acknowledging harm.

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