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  1. #221
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    When I was in the Marines, 50-75 of us lived on a single floor in an open squadbay. We were trained to kill, we had guns and knives, and we were young and uneducated. There was a lot of testosterone in the air, a lot of muscle-flexing and getting in each other's faces. There were racial issues, class issues, and so on. We were packed in like sardines, all showered, shaved, and shit in the same bathroom, and people were always getting into shoving matches.

    We had to have mechanisms for getting over our disagreements quickly, or people would have ended up dead. We had to get along and work and live together 24/7. We didn't have the luxury of indulging long-running feuds. And, in fact, there seemed to exist a some kind of social mechanism for how to deal with petty squabbles--probably an Fe thing.

    Basically if person A started talking shit and ended up getting person B or several people riled up, then some third parties would intervene and lean on person A to back it off. If he was smart, person A would realize he maybe crossed a line and he would make some kind of concession: "Okay, maybe I was out of line. I still think it was fucked up, but I guess I have to suck it up and not go shooting off my mouth about it."

    The same third parties would then go to person B and tell him that person A had made a concession, and now it was time for person B to yield a little and allow person A to "save face." Sometimes person B didn't want to do that; person B wanted to play butthurt and try to wring a full apology out of person A. But the third parties would again intervene and tell person B that he's not getting a full apology. And if person B persisted in playing the martyr/victim/butthurt, then person B would become the object of censure, not person A.

    As for this thread: I skimmed a few of the high points in the thread, and the dynamics here seem similar. Sounds like WUR crossed some line, but then backed it up a bit and admitted that maybe her initial remarks had been injudicious and over-the-line. Some people accepted the concession and were willing to let the issue die; others are still playing butthurt and insisting on a much bigger concession before they'll let it go. In other words, there's a lack of consensus about how and when to let this thing die.

    I think that this is also Coriolis's point: not that INTJs are special, but instead that other types would know when to let this thing go.

    I'm not suggesting any particular course of action here. I'm just saying that at some point person B has to know when to let it go. You can't play that "victim" trump card indefinitely. You wear it out, and you start looking like an idiot. Noblesse oblige. If WUR makes a concession, then it behooves the other party to make a corresponding concession, rather than trying to milk the situation for an even bigger payoff.

    Just my opinion, of course.

  2. #222
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Do you mean I should give credit to @Corn Dispenser?
    @Corn Dispenser I you!

    or you think I live in Montana/Kansas right now?

    What I could gave off the 505 as in Breaking Bad Albuquerque. But I'm not too big of a fan of that show. (I watched it in its entirety though, so glad that season 6 was an internet joke)
    You obviously aren't from the midwest because it's Nebraska that's corn country. Kansas is wheat. No idea about Montana.
    /Ti taking things too seriously and besides, I'm from Kansas.

    /lame attempt at humor
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga
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  3. #223
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    (I'm not even sure this was aimed at me, but in case it was. )

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I think that this is also Coriolis's point: not that INTJs are special, but instead that other types would know when to let this thing go.
    Well my point, in a way, is that INTJs ARE special in this regard- that setting "INTJ reaction to criticism" as a bar for others to adhere to is somewhat unreasonable. It's like a deaf person saying, "Well the noise in here isn't bothering me, it shouldn't bother you either."

    I really don't mean to belabor the point- and it's actually on a very separate tangent from the discussion that was going on (which I'd stopped paying attention to myself). I do see your point- there is a point where individuals must realize the world doesn't revolve around them, and they have to suck it up and assimilate. But also: this isn't the army, it's available to choose not to assimilate and to simply leave- and several members have done just that. I just wanted to point out an example of (what seems to me) something that was discussed almost ad nauseam a few months back about the possible consequences of having a predominately INTJ modbox (and people leaving the forum because the forum seemed to become far more business-oriented than people-oriented).

    I don't want this to turn into a thing. I just wanted to give a "see, this is an example of what I was trying to tell you people."
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #224
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby I will get to your posts here soon but since Coriolis' comment that Z Buck mentions below came just before yours... and made me question for a few minutes whether I was on a "typology" or "sameology" website... I'm going to try to babble out a few words. But it is this kind of comment...I see it a lot on this forum...a forum in where we're trying to understand our differences or so I thought...that is such a large part of pain I have absolutely not been trying to avoid (I only avoid the pain of bills and household chores...daily livin stuff).



    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    In spite of feeling like this might be teetering on "beating a dead horse" territory (to prolong anything about this whole conversation)- it's exactly this kind of comment that makes a predominately INTJ modbox somewhat problematic (this is an example of what I've tried pointing out before). Because guess what? INFJs aren't INTJs. And it kinda seems like it should go without saying that of course "Why do others hate INFxs?" is going to stir up more drama than an "Why do others hate INTxs?" thread. "Be more INTJ / problem solved" doesn't actually work unless you're dealing with INTJs. (What it does do is make sensitive INFxs feel bad about being INFxs.)


    /preaching

    Thank you. Where are we?
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  5. #225
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i mean, i do think this thread is valuable, and it is a rehash of many things that have happened so many times before, but in a sense it is learning how to deal with the Fe/Fi divide and work thru conflicts in a constructive way. most of us need the practice, and being able to explicate and balance perspectives and be in it all at once is kind of fucking awesome.

    i also agree with yui's point. and i'm not sure if that is part of where peacebaby is coming from. at times, i know peacebaby wants to help facilitate, appreciates seeing both sides of conflicts, and values improving communication. i do trust that, even as, at times, i have a little bit of inner resistance when it feels like her process prioritizes Fi/Te needs over Fe/Ti ones. it's at this point where i think it's maybe useful to actually better understand the assumptions. i have guesses and would love additional feedback/conversation about them.

    for one, i think Fi generally will prioritize the individual. and so there's kind of a gang-up situation brewing, and making sure both sides are heard and that that individual is protected and validated too might be the highest pressing priority. there is a more direct reality to many vs one than one saying irresponsible generalizations from a place that isn't actually aiming to hurt any one individual but is more about there own emotionally charged state. in that way, demanding an apology that goes extra far, as jui pointed out, is more of a direct interpersonal shit move, and in a way is more problematic. instead of just getting an acknowledgment, there might be a desire for shaming the behavior too, which really isn't helpful. once shame is triggered, however, a blame state is really difficult to avoid. giving energy to all those ways you blame yourself, at some point, loses containment and becomes a bit of a shit-show. in this way, it's partly an infj thing with Fe oftentimes having especially intense challenges with boundaries, but it's also a really high sensitivity thing, which oftentimes gets pushed back on the sensitive person and does result in them internalizing a lot of blame for being sensitive in the first place. few things are as much of a trap as this. i'm sure so many of us on this board recognize that process in action and have at times felt strangled by it.

    it does get more complicated, too, when the fact that this isn't really driven (at least i don't think) by an interpersonal conflict so much as a political one, where the board is kind of negotiating expectations for how interactions should go and what kinds of considerations and respects should be required. i think, in some ways, we are exploring in kind of a microcosm how our ways of contributing and our perspectives relate to larger social spaces, and there is a deeper element in recognizing that social/cultural spaces are tinged with typological biases as well that do become real gradients for us to express ourselves and ask to be valued for what we do/are. i think hel did such an amazing job of articulating that lazy generalizations DO matter, but, at the same time, there were moments of unsympathetic reading too that brought up issues about how we are accountable to generalizations when we both write and read. i think more conversation or explanation from this could be helpful.
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  6. #226
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    In spite of feeling like this might be teetering on "beating a dead horse" territory (to prolong anything about this whole conversation)- it's exactly this kind of comment that makes a predominately INTJ modbox somewhat problematic (this is an example of what I've tried pointing out before). Because guess what? INFJs aren't INTJs. And it kinda seems like it should go without saying that of course "Why do others hate INFxs?" is going to stir up more drama than an "Why do others hate INTxs?" thread. "Be more INTJ / problem solved" doesn't actually work unless you're dealing with INTJs. (What it does do is make sensitive INFxs feel bad about being INFxs.)
    I was waiting for someone to bring this up. As we all know, every type has strengths and weaknesses. We are often encouraged to work on our weaknesses, or at least to become more aware of them so we can mitigate their impact in our life. Countless threads hereabouts have in one way or another encouraged INTJs to be more like NFs - more sensitive to the feelings of others, more careful with what we say and do. This is a legitimate suggestion. Taking it to heart will never turn us into NFs, but it may help smooth some of our rough edges so we get along better in life. It is similarly legitimate to suggest that NFs have something to learn from how INTJs handle conflict or criticism.

    Beyond this, we are all upset by different things. If we know what upsets us, and we willingly go into a situation where such things are likely to be present, we should be prepared for what we find. If we don't want to deal with it, we can just stay away. I can assure you that as an INTJ I employ this rule of thumb quite often. Life is too short to subject myself to needless aggravation.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    When I was in the Marines, 50-75 of us lived on a single floor in an open squadbay. We were trained to kill, we had guns and knives, and we were young and uneducated. There was a lot of testosterone in the air, a lot of muscle-flexing and getting in each other's faces. There were racial issues, class issues, and so on. We were packed in like sardines, all showered, shaved, and shit in the same bathroom, and people were always getting into shoving matches.

    We had to have mechanisms for getting over our disagreements quickly, or people would have ended up dead. We had to get along and work and live together 24/7. We didn't have the luxury of indulging long-running feuds. And, in fact, there seemed to exist a some kind of social mechanism for how to deal with petty squabbles--probably an Fe thing.

    Basically if person A started talking shit and ended up getting person B or several people riled up, then some third parties would intervene and lean on person A to back it off. If he was smart, person A would realize he maybe crossed a line and he would make some kind of concession: "Okay, maybe I was out of line. I still think it was fucked up, but I guess I have to suck it up and not go shooting off my mouth about it."
    Outstanding example. I think what the forum lacks by comparison is that group of third parties who mediate between A and B. Yes, we have the modstaff, but by the time something is reported to us, it has often gone beyond this stage. (We do try to mediate when we catch situations early enough, but the forum is a big place, and many issues escape our notice until a report comes in.) This is why I was encouraging elsewhere for members to be that third party - to take the part of someone being bullied in a thread; to point out that both sides in a dispute have valid points; to pull the thread back on track with a substantive post.

    As the saying goes, be the change . . .
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #227
    eye of the storm magpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think hel did such an amazing job of articulating that lazy generalizations DO matter, but, at the same time, there were moments of unsympathetic reading too that brought up issues about how we are accountable to generalizations when we both write and read. i think more conversation or explanation from this could be helpful.
    I'm glad everyone is exploring this but I don't think I did a very good job. I think what I brought up was my focus on a subject that had been brought up by others but that no one else was concerned with in the same way I am. So this was never about generalizations in the way that I made it specifically. From the start this thread hasn't been about a lot of things that it was made into. But we let it become what people needed it to be and worked it out because it was necessary. But if we aren't going to address it in the way that I've specified then let's not pretend it's something it's not. I'm not saying we have to address it in my way, of course. Just that the precedent has been set for that already in this thread.

    My point is people aren't concerned with generalizing in this thread in the same way I am. And they don't have to be. But it's important to acknowledge that they're not.

  8. #228
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    bcuz they are terrible people
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
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  9. #229
    eye of the storm magpie's Avatar
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    As an addendum though, that doesn't mean what I've brought up isn't important or is any less important than what anyone else has brought up, just because even though what I've brought up isn't necessarily true for everyone else, it's still true for me.

  10. #230
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's not a fence that any of us get to straddle both sides of. Working through interpersonal issues requires engagement with the source. Just the way these things go. All other efforts are an unfortunate substitute for purposeful dialogue, and the "poking" only serves to support the internal position in an external way, providing an outlet but not providing the answer. Isn't the answer what's being sought?

    It's like playing ice hockey but never wearing skates. Or playing chess but moving on only one side of the board. Yet claiming you've done both.

    eta: What are your underlying personal beliefs and what assumptions are you making here?

    Your post to me that came just before this...while I understood the overall message I think I confused a couple of the complementary (not necessarily essential) details...which again falls entirely to me and the fact I've been *burning the candle at both ends*. I'm left to wonder though whether I'll just end up making things even more confusing if I attempt a "what I thought you were saying was..." type explanation. And so I may sidestep that just for now...


    I personally believe there should be less assumption and more tolerance on a typology website (out of everyone I should say)

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