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  1. #211
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Here's the thing: I don't care about who's right or wrong.

    You Je types can battle it all out in the arena with blood and guts and gore if you want to, see who takes the most points and wins the day.

    Have at it.

    I couldn't care less.

    I care that other people are being FAIR. That's what I sometimes point out.

    And I care about what's true. True often has very little to do with right or wrong.

    I see both sides as having right and wrong points.

    I care that Rex has caused some pain, intentionally or not.

    I care that the INFJs lasered in on Rex's words without clarification.

    I care that new words have been invented to convey this extrapolated meaning.

    It matters to me that no one has asked Rex, "Is this what you are saying?"

    I care that Rex has tried to reestablish good relations.

    I care that Forever shared an internal truth.

    That's why I get into these discussions.

    So y'all can keep on arguing past each other, and get back to me anyone who wants to find the middle ground. Who wants to figure out how to communicate better, because that's a rosetta stone I've been looking for in here for a while.
    The general tenor of the conversation exceeded my level of "caring" about four or fives hours ago. I went, had lunch and did other things.

    Fwiw, I do regret making the initial post that I did. I stand by what I said, but it's hard to look at where things are and say that anything good has come of it. A lot of interesting, thoughtful people are wasting time and thought on what amounts to a bullshit kerfuffle that I caused by venting on nonsense. This is a no win. I knew better.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #212
    Anamolic Amalgamation Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    The general tenor of the conversation exceeded my level of "caring" about four or fives hours ago. I went, had lunch and did other things.

    Fwiw, I do regret making the initial post that I did. I stand by what I said, but it's hard to look at where things are and say that anything good has come of it. A lot of interesting, thoughtful people are wasting time and thought on what amounts to a bullshit kerfuffle that I caused by venting on nonsense. This is a no win. I knew better.
    You did win though, at least I thought.

    I regret my overreaction and should've taken more time towards my responses and probably shouldn't included @Dyslexxie as that set off some intense confusion.

  3. #213
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    You did win though, at least I thought.
    I don't really think anyone learned or gained anything here. I've had some genuinely bad experiences with several unhealthy INFJs that have shown me the very worst of that type, and my trust for people who identify with that type is limited. Upsetting a bunch of people--some of whom I had considered friends--over those feelings doesn't help me resolve them or do anything constructive with it. So I didn't get anything out of it, the people who are upset are worse off, and others got sucked into totally unnecessary shenanigans even after that. All over a knee jerk choice on my part to ambush some folks with a couple of shitty comments. It wasn't worth it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
    Likes Hard, Codex liked this post

  4. #214
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    All over a knee jerk choice on my part to ambush some folks with a couple of shitty comments. It wasn't worth it.
    Listen, it was just an inferior Fi rant. Nothing to beat yourself up over.

    If you don't purge that stuff it just festers. You just happened to purge it in the place where it would get the least understanding and the most consternation. (Legitimately so). Nonetheless, you are fine. As humans, we all just step on each other from time to time, hard to avoid.

    That's a spot in you that could use some attention, helping yourself heal from the hurts of the past, and it popped up here because, well, it was the topic. Awareness is the gift.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #215
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I enjoyed it!


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  6. #216
    Anamolic Amalgamation Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I enjoyed it!
    Whatever floats your boat.

  7. #217
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I enjoyed it!
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
    Likes Forever, JocktheMotie, Masokissed liked this post

  8. #218
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Okay, yes, thanks... I understand what you're saying now. But I honestly don't know what to do either and share the frustration. I mean, it's frustrating from my end to be sorta characterized as an individual (I know you're not only directing your comments towards *me* but I'll just write in this way since I'm only addressing my personal experience at the moment) that's just "pokin for the hell of it". I mean, it's very confusing to the point a short stint in the state farm may in fact be very soothing for me... because all I can hear is "you are hurting me by trying to get me to stop hurting others".

    No, I understand the frustration and am temporarily out of ideas.
    It's not a fence that any of us get to straddle both sides of. Working through interpersonal issues requires engagement with the source. Just the way these things go. All other efforts are an unfortunate substitute for purposeful dialogue, and the "poking" only serves to support the internal position in an external way, providing an outlet but not providing the answer. Isn't the answer what's being sought?

    It's like playing ice hockey but never wearing skates. Or playing chess but moving on only one side of the board. Yet claiming you've done both.

    eta: What are your underlying personal beliefs and what assumptions are you making here?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes Wind Up Rex, Masokissed liked this post

  9. #219
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Here's one underlying belief I heard yesterday @Starry: the assumption that pain is always bad. That pain is to be avoided. And by extrapolation, that anyone who causes pain to be evoked in another is bad and should be avoided. Avoiding pain negates every positive effect the pain can confer and teach us. Pain is purposeful. Pain is meant to point out areas in our internal selves that need attention. It has every bit as much purpose as the pain from touching a hot stove tells us to move our hand. Does that pain mean the stove is bad? No. Does it mean we shouldn't cook again? No. Of course, that might be the outcome, originating with a fear that one must avoid pain at all costs. If you stubbed your toe, you could say that's pain with no purpose. Yet this has a purpose too, reminding us that our physical self has limitations. Our internal pain is a roadmap to personal growth, but you can't get anywhere if you're not willing to read the directions.

    If we engage in dialogue, and this causes you pain, it's about you, just as surely as my pain is about me. Pain is like a ping of radar saying, "Look here, there's something over here". Investigating it is a necessary step to locating the message it is attempting to convey. Pain is painful, but not purposeless. It's something I personally find worth having gratitude about.

    ------------------------------

    Now, last night as I lay in bed it struck me that there's perhaps no definition out there of what an Fi rant is, and that this might have value in the explication. An Fi rant is any broad, overly generalized external statement that attempts to capture a sense of an inner emotion or other feeling. This feeling is not one that's easily expressed, and generally the inability to express it well with words ensures that the words that get attached to it rarely ever convey what someone actually thinks on the matter but the underlying tone is one that brings some type of awareness to the inner state. An Fi rant can be positive or negative, but is usually negative, ergo a rant. It is an expelling of interal energy in order to get to the root of starting to process the why. In putting the pain outside, it has an unfortunate side effect of causing pain for other people in the way. Partly this is because an Fi rant is frequently misunderstood, and partly because most people avoid looking at pain. Fe hears the disproportion in the pain, and seeks to bounce this back on the person radiating it, rather than seeing it for what it is. It's not trying to push other people with discomfort, it's an attempt to find balance.

    So, when I heard Rex, I heard inner distress. The rant portion was something that would correct itself rationally with time and clarification, and sputter out without paying it any undue attention (or with a bit of soothing). The rant occured in a logical place, but in a place where it would assuredly get the most amount of negative reaction, and cause collateral damage, when ironically some compassion for the pain place was desired. Then, in causing Fe folks distress, they make themselves the focal point -- the equivalent of saying, "You made an owie with your words, fix my owie!" Annnnd that's why I don't pay as much attention to that either, as the relevant amount of attention to the WHY of why their internal distress exists has not been examined. I have compassion and a bandaid, but that doesn't exempt INFJs from the internal work. And in not doing any inner work, they reduce their effectiveness in detecting real pain and places that could use a healing touch.

    At any rate, no sense rehashing it all and I want to get on with my day. Hope that provides some clarity.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #220
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think INTJ hate threads would give the INFJ ones a run for their money. And guess what? I don't usually see INTJs getting all butthurt in them, however nasty the hate runs. Perspective, folks. If someone starts a thread called "Why people hate INFJs/INTJs/XYZWs", you can bet there will be some unflattering and perhaps even hyperbolic remarks about that type in the thread. You don't have to read it, you know.
    In spite of feeling like this might be teetering on "beating a dead horse" territory (to prolong anything about this whole conversation)- it's exactly this kind of comment that makes a predominately INTJ modbox somewhat problematic (this is an example of what I've tried pointing out before). Because guess what? INFJs aren't INTJs. And it kinda seems like it should go without saying that of course "Why do others hate INFxs?" is going to stir up more drama than an "Why do others hate INTxs?" thread. "Be more INTJ / problem solved" doesn't actually work unless you're dealing with INTJs. (What it does do is make sensitive INFxs feel bad about being INFxs.)


    /preaching
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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