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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    How is comparing something that actually somewhat accurately describes people even compare to palm reading and horoscopes? The guy who wrote the article and the "personality psychologist" probably never got much into the functions or Jung's work at all. I could understand coming to this conclusion by only reading Keirsey.

    Also, the spoiler is spelled wrong.
    I agree with you, mainly about the Keirsey part. Keirsey is seductive in his temperament descriptions. I do actually cross reference to Keirsey in a closeted way because it helps me to know who would get excited about the images he presents in each matrix of temperament. I fellin love with his 20-30s gangster, 40s film noir, baby kissing politician SPs, and I remember JTG actually liked his wholesome 50s SJ Sandra Dee thing...but the problem really starts when Keirsey gets too specific. Temperament yes, individual type description, PUHLEEZ...but his temperament archetypes are useful. However overall it's a ghoulish shopworn outdated culture specific mess that sometimes terrifies or embarasses liberal SJs or confuses SPs who may not be suffering from antisocial personality or bipolar disorder, because Keirsey did not believe in mental illness so lumps in many social deviants and impulsive car thieves with SPs. Also there's that whole thing where he made introversion intuition and extroversion sensing....I was impressed though with his ability to correctly type David Lynch as ISFP.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The important thing to preserve is freedom of speech. So we tolerate believers and sceptics.

    Of course sometimes believers are offended by sceptics, and sometimes sceptics are offended by believers, but this is the price we pay for free speech.
    It's always a balance between free exchange of ideas vs the constant white noise that prevents ideas from even being able to be communicated.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The problem is viewing MBTI as a "truth" to be disproven instead of a vocabulary to discuss personality. MBTI is a system to arrange ideas about how personality appears using basic, common mentalities people display. That's a far cry from categorizing people's personalities based on birth date & movements of celestial bodies. Is it really crazy to suggest a connection between mentality & behavioral patterns & observable personality? It may be vulnerable to being reduced to something too simplistic & prone to stereotypes, but it's not something totally invented out of thin air. It's just a way to talk about patterns in people & personality that we observe everyday around us, the same way we may categorize people based on appearance & see patterns in common appearances and people's genealogy.

    I would agree that using it in business is not ethical, because you have to make a case for these mentalities & social roles being inseparable from talents & skills & intelligence, etc, and then you'd have to make a case that people are static and cannot grow beyond their basic mentality, aka, that we are limited by our personalities.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The problem is viewing MBTI as a "truth" to be disproven instead of a vocabulary to discuss personality. MBTI is a system to arrange ideas about how personality appears using basic, common mentalities people display. That's a far cry from categorizing people's personalities based on birth date & movements of celestial bodies. Is it really crazy to suggest a connection between mentality & behavioral patterns & observable personality? It may be vulnerable to being reduced to something too simplistic & prone to stereotypes, but it's not something totally invented out of thin air. It's just a way to talk about patterns in people & personality that we observe everyday around us, the same way we may categorize people based on appearance & see patterns in common appearances and people's genealogy.

    I would agree that using it in business is not ethical, because you have to make a case for these mentalities & social roles being inseparable from talents & skills & intelligence, etc, and then you'd have to make a case that people are static and cannot grow beyond their basic mentality, aka, that we are limited by our personalities.
    It's more that just as astrology has been superceded by astronomy, and just as alchemy has been superceded by chemistry, and creationism has been superceded by natural selection, so mbti has been superceded by psychometrics.

    Mbti does create a nice illusion like astrology, alchemy, and creationism.

    For instance, our whole scientific medical establisment, based on evidence based medicine, is saying publicly, that complementary medicine (CM) is an illusion. But the CM industry is outraged, and accusing the medical profession of being offensive, and in some sense blasphemous, violating our right to believe what we want.

    And mbti is outraged by evidence based psychometrics and accuses us of blasphemy.

    How dare you say mbti is based on no empirical evidence, how dare you say mbti creates an illusion for the scientifically illiterate. We can believe whatever we want, regardless of the evidence, this is religious freedom and to say otherwise is blasphemy.

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's more that just as astrology has been superceded by astronomy, and just as alchemy has been superceded by chemistry, and creationism has been superceded by natural selection, so mbti has been superceded by psychometrics.

    Mbti does create a nice illusion like astrology, alchemy, and creationism.

    For instance, our whole scientific medical establisment, based on evidence based medicine, is saying publicly, that complementary medicine (CM) is an illusion. But the CM industry is outraged, and accusing the medical profession of being offensive, and in some sense blasphemous, violating our right to believe what we want.

    And mbti is outraged by evidence based psychometrics and accuses us of blasphemy.

    How dare you say mbti is based on no empirical evidence, how dare you say mbti creates an illusion for the scientifically illiterate. We can believe whatever we want, regardless of the evidence, this is religious freedom and to say otherwise is blasphemy.
    You miss the point (as usual). There is no "believing" because there is nothing it believe in, only something to USE. That's like saying you believe language is truth. Language is a communication tool, and you can speak truth with it or not. It's a vehicle to communicate, not the content of the communication itself.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #16
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    Default The Medium is the Message

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You miss the point (as usual). There is no "believing" because there is nothing it believe in, only something to USE. That's like saying you believe language is truth. Language is a communication tool, and you can speak truth with it or not. It's a vehicle to communicate, not the content of the communication itself.
    C'mon, OrangeApplied, we know that we create our tools and our tools create us. We create language and language creates us. We created print and print created us. We created the electronic media and the electronic media is creating us. We created the motor car and the motor car creates us: you are a motorist, n'est pas?

    Anyone who says it is simply a tool that we completely control, and anyone who says it is the content that matters not the vehicle of communication, simply doesn't understand that the medium is the message.

  7. #17
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's more that just as astrology has been superceded by astronomy, and just as alchemy has been superceded by chemistry, and creationism has been superceded by natural selection, so mbti has been superceded by psychometrics.
    Anyone who thinks the MBTI lacks "psychometric" support is woefully uninformed about the MBTI. If you'd bothered to read the first post I linked to, you'd know that McCrae and Costa (the leading Big Five psychologists) are among the people who agree with that.

    The version of the MBTI instrument that Myers was using by the start of the 1960s reflected years of psychometric analysis of thousands of results, with the result that (as McCrae and Costa have acknowledged) Myers was effectively tapping into four of the Big Five dimensions years before there really was a Big Five.

    And much more data has been gathered and psychometrically analyzed since, and the MBTI has been adjusted (and further improved) multiple times as a result.

    As summarized in the 2003 Bess/Harvey/Swartz article I discuss in the linked post (based on their own 11,000-subject study and their review of previous studies):

    Quote Originally Posted by Bess/Harvey/Swartz
    In sum, although the MBTI is very widely used in organizations, with literally millions of administrations being given annually, ... the criticisms of it that have been offered by its vocal detractors (e.g., Pittenger, 1993) have led some psychologists to view it as being of lower psychometric quality in comparison to more recent tests based on the [Big Five] (e.g., McCrae & Costa, 1987). In contrast, we find the findings reported above — especially when viewed in the context of previous confirmatory factor analytic research on the MBTI, and meta-analytic reviews of MBTI reliability and validity studies (Harvey, 1996) — to provide a very firm empirical foundation that can be used to justify the use of the MBTI as a personality assessment device in applied organizational settings.

  8. #18
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    They say seeing is believing, but when the seen is not believed, we panic and blame the messenger.

    For instance for 200,000 years we could see that the Sun went round the Earth, our very eyes proved this every day, but when Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, Egypt, discovered the Earth went round the Sun, we panicked.

    We burned the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, the greatest library of the Pagan world, to the ground. Then we hunted out Hypatia, a great astronomer and mathematician, and we skinned her alive and dragged her through the streets of Alexandria.

    Today we can see the sixteen types of 7.2 billion people with our own eyes. We can see the types of celebrities, our own families, people we have never met, as well as the types of our pets. And seeing is believing, and anyone who says what we see is an illusion, is less than welcome.

    I am afraid that those who believe what they see are uneducated.

    The modern world is built on scepticism, in simply being sceptical about what we see.

    And it was the European Enlightenment that gave us scepticism.

    So mbti is part of the pre-Enlightenment, mbti is a superstition of the uneducated, of those who believe what they see.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    They say seeing is believing
    They also say, believing is seeing.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    They also say, believing is seeing.
    download.jpg
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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