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  1. #31
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    In my observations, this site does not actually practice such a thing in its group culture and how people interact with each other. So if it is a theme that will be more than words, it would need some real changes.
    The point is to say what we WANT the forum to be like, possibly preventing much of the nonsense you detail. It's not a lie, or hypocrisy. It's a vision, an ideal.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    "I was confused and didn't know who I was. My life was going in circles.

    "But after listening to the preaching of Carl Jung and Katherine Briggs and Isabelle Myers, I invited MBTI into my heart and now I have a personal relationship with it. The whole world changed for me. I finally had a reason and purpose to live, and I'm so much happier now that I know who I am. Everything finally makes sense.

    I just want to share this happiness that I have found with the rest of the world. it can change your life too, just like it changed mine! Won't you consider inviting MBTI into your heart? Praise Jung, Praise Myers, Praise Briggs (but everyone beware of the false prophets like David Keirsey)."
    That is really good. Maybe at the end we could have...

    When you find the real you, you'll never be the same again.

  3. #33
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    In my observations, this site does not actually practice such a thing in its group culture and how people interact with each other. So if it is a theme that will be more than words, it would need some real changes.

    On this site, from what I have seen, it is pretty common for participants to post incredibly negative, flowing into vicious, characterizations of entire MBTI types and encourage each other in doing so. Often, the source for this approach seems to come from participants' personal issues with people in their lives who either are or are presumed to be a particular type. Among other things yielding type bashing here, people use bashing entire types as a way to evade honest exploration about whatever went wrong in bad relationships, conflicts with people in their lives etc. For example, because I am an INFJ and gravitate toward threads addressing our functions etc, I have seen that there have been more than one incredibly nasty and extremely long/ongoing threads in which multiple participants bash INFJs as a type (including anyone on the site who identifies as that type) based on participants' exes or others in their lives who are actually or assumed to be INFJ.

    And that's just one example based on my limited observations and time here. I've been told that here at typologycentral, type-bashing is not limited to any one type, that all types get their turn on this site. I'm inclined to believe it - there's a real lack of concern with type-bashing here.

    I think it would be incredibly deceptive for this site to claim its theme is celebration of difference - or any variation of the theme of using MBTI to respectfully interact across differences without superiority/inferiority - without substantial changes to the core of this site and what is actually acceptable here.
    I think those things do happen and typism is a concern. We had a very healthy discussion on it in the Forum Improvement committee, which included sharing your feedback on this topic. My inclination is to focus on practical solutions and direction, which is laid out beginning with this post. I like the fact that @EJCC started a thread about this because she is focusing on we can do to make a difference. She is asking honest questions to try and address what she sees as a problem.

    I'm a believer that honest and respectful discussion and debate results in learning. We influence not only ourselves but everyone who has access to our forum by facilitating that here. Should we censure criticism of any particular type? Where do you draw the line on what is acceptable or not? Do we squash people from communicating those frustrations in their real life with a particular type and the dialogue that ensues? We thought about it when we revised the Forum Rules last fall and we ended up drawing the line where we did here.

    The kind of type bashing you mention is responded to on this forum. People may challenge it if they are trying to set someone straight. People may ignore it if person X is going on about type Y again because they don't want to encourage the conversation. In either case it's an opportunity for a dialogue and for people to challenge each other. I like that focus more than complaining and then saying you don't want to engage on something. It's a discussion forum.

    Edit: As an aside, I think INFJs are awesome. I think most people here think that. You could start a thread on why INFJs are awesome with a poll and I predict you would get a lot more positive votes than negative ones. Is that typism? I don't know. I generally just tend to appreciate the way their mind works and how they communicate.

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  4. #34
    Member atlascatcher's Avatar
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    *abandons idealism and puts practicality cap on*

    If you are really sold on this idea of bringing the MBTI into a better public light, basically you will have to fight fire with fire in terms of systematizing your approach in a way that subverts the monopoly currently serving the consumer base. Maybe a way to do this is to set up a non-profit, research based institution that operates on a level of transparency as far as its goals and what its participants hope to achieve themselves. You would probably need a very clear mission statement that purports exactly what you intend for the public to learn, in this case self-discovery and ways of managing community ties with others. On top of this, you would likely need to base it more on Jung's original work rather than trying to make a simplified version. This would entail very specific definitions of what the functions are all about and how they manifest in each type--Oh snap, good luck with Ni and Si; maybe socionics can help you there. Sarcasm aside, I have seen many people who tend to only want to speak of cognitive functions so perhaps this might be a good approach. Rather than someone being an ESFJ with all of the stereotypes that encompasses, perhaps an overarching Fe dominant type with two subtypes of Ni and Si might be more appropriate. I am quite the flag waiver for using JCF over dichotomies, personally! I feel as though you would probably need to abandon any mention of temperaments or anything that oversimplifies an approach. Real world examples might be your best friend in really reaching out to the public.

    This of course only implies a bureaucratic or organizational approach. The larger task will be convincing the public to buy into your system or at least give it a chance. You run the risk of becoming another variation of pod people, or worse, those astrological hippies! Oops the sarcasm came back, sorry. I suppose this is where the research based area comes in and in a sense perhaps you could invite people to be apart of your study under the umbrella of being able to better understand themselves (it is really important all of this is free) and a way to provide public feedback of their experiences. An underground advertising campaign may also be effective through "stickering" with QR codes to reach a younger audience. A separate political activist-like campaign could also be initiated in a way that exposes the MBTI for what it is, a mindless corporate profit method. The image of Michael Moore going to big business intending to make citizen arrests comes to mind. Another alternative is to somehow appeal to university students (will bring this up more later on) who really have this concept of career exploration imposed upon them. You might need a way to somehow make friends with the public education system and insist reasons why your system trumps their's. Not costing the institution anything would be a giant plus and you might be able to get more psychology staff on your side.

    Another idea might be turning this into a type of movement as a way to bring local communities together. I am certain there are people from all over the world on this forum and it would not take a lot of organizing to put on free educational sessions in a town square bringing together for introspection and common interest. You are likely to get a lot of people on your side that way who will then mention their experiences to their friends and families. Of course the key here is to again systematize so everyone is having the same information. Having an argument break out over what Se is will not help your case. This makes everything difficult.

    But those are just some ideas...I have probably put too much thought into this. The more I learn about personality theory the less I care about it. Somehow it manages to hold my attention reading the various online communities. I think the only useful thing I still use in my everyday life is considering whether a person is FiTe or FeTi. The latter I know I will have an easier time with and am generally more comfortable around because I understand them better. I originally got into MBTI as a tool of self-discovery. It was not until later that I even knew there was a capitalistic side of it. But just to give you an idea of what you are up against, here is an example of the "in depth" report on my personality through an online career planning website my uni offers to its students (it is interesting to note there is no blanket statement of what INFJ is): http://s21.postimg.org/q2rl18hdx/mbti_test.jpg

    The company is Myplan.com, L.L.C. My "composite score" essentially has me placed in any number of STEM majors...Funny, there is no mention of artistic pursuit.
    Last edited by atlascatcher; 07-16-2014 at 11:32 PM. Reason: i didn't want to be put into a concentration camp
    [ 4(69) "The Seeker"; IEI-2Ni (INFp) ]


  5. #35
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Edit: As an aside, I think INFJs are awesome. I think most people here think that. You could start a thread on why INFJs are awesome with a poll and I predict you would get a lot more positive votes than negative ones. Is that typism? I don't know. I generally just tend to appreciate the way their mind works and how they communicate.
    Response to your aside: Personally, I really don't want to be framed as "awesome" because I'm INFJ. Speaking specifically for myself, that approach to me would, much like negative generalizations, take the complexity and human-ness out of the interaction and quite possibly reduce the focus to some two-dimensional projection. I would prefer not to be exoticized (overly praised) or demonized based generalizations about my MBTI type/cognitive function stack. I think that those two things (exoticization/over-praise and demonization) are in many ways two sides of the same coin. A more matter of fact approach to the realities of how these functions work in limited and complex ways in our actual lives seems much more human, respectful, and useful to me. So yeah, I myself personally would likely find the thread and poll you suggest to be pretty cringe-worthy and yes, quite possibly linked to the same sort of unreal overgeneralized two-dimensional approach to MBTI that underlies type-bashing.

    (As for your specific appreciation, exploration of why you might appreciate how INFJs' minds work could IMO be useful under some circumstances. If it sources at least partly to cognitive functions, I suspect the place to begin such an exploration would be the shared Ni-dom. Personally, I've tended to enjoy and learn lots from dialogue with INTJs when neither of us is too attached to and rooted in our aux functions at the time; the differences become something to look at with interest and the shared Ni-dom can yield some really fascinating dialogue, in my experience.)

  6. #36
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    [1 of 2]

    It seems like the MBTI "debunkings" have been coming thicker and faster lately, but their quality certainly isn't improving — which is hardly surprising, given the extent to which each one seems to be based largely on a quick review of previous "debunkings," rather than on the authors actually doing much serious homework.

    I'm going to take more time than the latest debunker really deserves to address some of the points in the article by Joseph Stromberg (a dude who "writes about science" at the Vox website) mentioned in the OP, partly because they're mostly points commonly found in these kinds of articles, so addressing this one also addresses several previous articles, as well as (I assume, alas) several more that are still to come.

    The Big Five is science and the MBTI is astrology

    I have more to say about the scientific status of the MBTI below, but wanted to begin by noting that, like most MBTI debunkings, this one points approvingly at the Big Five and characterizes it as a very different kind of animal. But McCrae and Costa — the leading Big Five psychologists (and creators of the NEO-PI-R test) — long ago acknowledged (1) that the MBTI (and this was an older version than the current one) basically passed muster in the validity and reliability departments, (2) that the MBTI was effectively tapping into four of the Big Five dimensions, and (3) that the Big Five and the MBTI might each have things to learn from the other.

    Discrete, bimodal types



    The MBTI simply implements Jung's types



    Reliability



    Myers didn't have a psychology degree!



    Real psychologists reject the MBTI



    [continued in next post]
    Last edited by reckful; 07-18-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    [2 of 2]

    The Forer effect



    Predictive power



    Beyond the metrics



    Dichotomies vs. functions



    Want moar?

    For anyone who's interested, here's another long — and reasonably good — critical review of Stromberg's article.
    Last edited by reckful; 07-18-2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Added myersbriggs.org link.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    It's not so much that MBTI needs rebranding as much as it needs to not be branded. Just let the experts speak and be heard about MBTIs proper usage, and for fucks sake let at least one thing in the world not be ruined by money and/ or incompetent people.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  9. #39
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So my discussion question here is: What can the general public -- i.e. those of us not part of the official MBTI establishment -- do? Is there anything that can be done?
    Try to model what we've learned. Keep learning. Keep working on ourselves.

    Is there any chance that, at some point in the future, other authors on the subject can take control of this narrative and help the world see the MBTI for what it's REALLY good at?
    Probably not.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #40
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    (As for your specific appreciation, exploration of why you might appreciate how INFJs' minds work could IMO be useful under some circumstances. If it sources at least partly to cognitive functions, I suspect the place to begin such an exploration would be the shared Ni-dom. Personally, I've tended to enjoy and learn lots from dialogue with INTJs when neither of us is too attached to and rooted in our aux functions at the time; the differences become something to look at with interest and the shared Ni-dom can yield some really fascinating dialogue, in my experience.)
    Of course that is the whole thing. It's due to cognitive functions. It's like talking to a kindred spirit but with important differences. What's wrong with that?

    People often don't know why they react the way they do to others. The beauty of the interaction on a forum like this is you get to see how people are different than you and if they publish their type you begin to discern patterns. I can think of one person here who tends to bash 6s. It doesn't bother me at all. I enjoy seeing him deal through his frustrations and don't take criticisms of my type seriously enough to be offended by it. It's just a lens.

    You might think type is more clumsy and overly generalized than I do. My guess is that you see things in a more nuanced way. Maybe that's part of the difference between how INTJs and INFJs tend to think.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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