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Thread: Function theory

  1. #11
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I've never tried to explain at what point in life a persons type becomes set - I'm not sure for one thing! What you are describing isn't really compatibly with my ideas because it doesn't match up with the fundamental way I defined the functions... However, that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. Within your idea, how does this internalisation process produce type and function order - assuming you believe in such things!
    It's just a wild assumption. The first 3 years is said to be important for an infant to be able to develop empathy, thru interaction with primary caregivers.

    So our preference for F function might be related to our interaction with parents as infants. Our physiology at birth might also be predisposed towards N or S and F or T. So nature and nurture.

    So perhaps we are born as our core type like NF NT SF ST and our interaction with the parents and the world afterwards affect the order and the direction of the first two functions. In my case, I can say that my tertiary become noticably strong enough around my late 20s. So until that time, I was predominantly running on my first two functions I guess.

    We adapt to secure nurturing from our parents. Fear of abandonment and death.

    I was ambiverted as a kid yet gradually become introverted in my teens. So external factors and pressures of life forces and molds us into our strongest combination of first two functions and we end up having to develop our tertiary and inferior functions in relation to that.

    Assuming we were running on dominant and auxiliary functions till late 20s, one of the functions must have served to interact with the world to gather information and affect the environment and the other must have served for internal processing purposes to analyze the internalized raw data. I guess the perceiving functions are related to id or superego and are autonomous whereas judging functions are related to ego. So as infants, our perceiving function in either the dominant or auxiliary position must have served as an autopilot for us to learn from the environment and develop our egos. The perceiving functions must be containing some kind of genetic inherited knowledge of species, some sort of source code that enables offspring of species to survive in the environment. Like kittens already knowing certain things by birth or instinct.

    So let's say we are born as an pseudo-NF and our interaction with the external world puts our F to the dominant position and our N to the auxiliary position. Then we become pressured by the realities of external world and have to adapt a direction for the dominant and the reverse for the auxiliary so that one of the two active functions serve as our connection to the external world.

    F is preference for spiritual (romanticism) whereas T is preference for material (realism). So someone who gives more preference for F will have proportionately less preference for T.

    Likewise S is preference for facts\reality whereas N is preference for surrealism\mystical. So someone who gives more preference for S will have proportionaley less preference for N.

    So our core type settles till late 20s and by then, we also have indirectly settled our tertiary and inferior, which we began developing from that point on, now that the first two functions have reached their limit for growth.

    I don't know what happens when both of the first two functions are introverted or extraverted by birth. The first case represents someone who has no connection to the outside world whereas the second one represents someone who keeps on internalizing information from the outside work but has no internal analysis mechanism to analyse the data.

    Anyway, just wild assumptions like I said.

  2. #12
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    It's just a wild assumption. The first 3 years is said to be important for an infant to be able to develop empathy, thru interaction with primary caregivers.

    So our preference for F function might be related to our interaction with parents as infants. Our physiology at birth might also be predisposed towards N or S and F or T. So nature and nurture.

    So perhaps we are born as our core type like NF NT SF ST and our interaction with the parents and the world afterwards affect the order and the direction of the first two functions. In my case, I can say that my tertiary become noticably strong enough around my late 20s. So until that time, I was predominantly running on my first two functions I guess.

    We adapt to secure nurturing from our parents. Fear of abandonment and death.

    I was ambiverted as a kid yet gradually become introverted in my teens. So external factors and pressures of life forces and molds us into our strongest combination of first two functions and we end up having to develop our tertiary and inferior functions in relation to that.

    Assuming we were running on dominant and auxiliary functions till late 20s, one of the functions must have served to interact with the world to gather information and affect the environment and the other must have served for internal processing purposes to analyze the internalized raw data. I guess the perceiving functions are related to id or superego and are autonomous whereas judging functions are related to ego. So as infants, our perceiving function in either the dominant or auxiliary position must have served as an autopilot for us to learn from the environment and develop our egos. The perceiving functions must be containing some kind of genetic inherited knowledge of species, some sort of source code that enables offspring of species to survive in the environment. Like kittens already knowing certain things by birth or instinct.

    So let's say we are born as an pseudo-NF and our interaction with the external world puts our F to the dominant position and our N to the auxiliary position. Then we become pressured by the realities of external world and have to adapt a direction for the dominant and the reverse for the auxiliary so that one of the two active functions serve as our connection to the external world.

    F is preference for spiritual (romanticism) whereas T is preference for material (realism). So someone who gives more preference for F will have proportionately less preference for T.

    Likewise S is preference for facts\reality whereas N is preference for surrealism\mystical. So someone who gives more preference for S will have proportionaley less preference for N.

    So our core type settles till late 20s and by then, we also have indirectly settled our tertiary and inferior, which we began developing from that point on, now that the first two functions have reached their limit for growth.

    I don't know what happens when both of the first two functions are introverted or extraverted by birth. The first case represents someone who has no connection to the outside world whereas the second one represents someone who keeps on internalizing information from the outside work but has no internal analysis mechanism to analyse the data.

    Anyway, just wild assumptions like I said.
    Well, an assumtion is a reasonable place to start, so long as you don't forget what it is!

    If the percieving functions relate to the id, do you feel that would mean primary percievers would more ruled by the id more than the ego? If so, that would suggest that primary percievers operate more on an instinctual level than primary judgers?

    Casting my mind back to my own childhood, I'd have to say that Te was expressed quite late. I didn't express it much until my mid teens. Before then I was more likely to display an Ni-Fi double introversion which left me rather locked in my own little world. Not that I saw much in the outside world to make me want dive into it. Te first expressed itself as a realisation that somethings just had to be delt with lest they become a source of pain.

    Still, like i said in my monologe, I don't consider function preference and function order to be the same thing. I suspect as there are multiple paths a growing child can take towards adopting a path as an adult.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  3. #13
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Well, an assumtion is a reasonable place to start, so long as you don't forget what it is!

    If the percieving functions relate to the id, do you feel that would mean primary percievers would more ruled by the id more than the ego? If so, that would suggest that primary percievers operate more on an instinctual level than primary judgers?
    Partially yes, primary extraverted perceivers operate on "id" whereas primary introverted perceivers operate on "superego". In the dominant position, either the id or the superego rules over the ego, inhibiting or disinhibiting it.

    Primary judgers OTOH operate on ego regardless of direction. I don't know if dominant\primary judgers are bound to be egotist or whether they can come out of it somehow, or what the sign\measure of a healthy level of ego is.

    Casting my mind back to my own childhood, I'd have to say that Te was expressed quite late. I didn't express it much until my mid teens. Before then I was more likely to display an Ni-Fi double introversion which left me rather locked in my own little world. Not that I saw much in the outside world to make me want dive into it. Te first expressed itself as a realisation that somethings just had to be delt with lest they become a source of pain.

    Still, like i said in my monologe, I don't consider function preference and function order to be the same thing. I suspect as there are multiple paths a growing child can take towards adopting a path as an adult.
    What's the distinction between function order and function preference?

  4. #14
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Partially yes, primary extraverted perceivers operate on "id" whereas primary introverted perceivers operate on "superego". In the dominant position, either the id or the superego rules over the ego, inhibiting or disinhibiting it.

    Primary judgers OTOH operate on ego regardless of direction. I don't know if dominant\primary judgers are bound to be egotist or whether they can come out of it somehow, or what the sign\measure of a healthy level of ego is.



    What's the distinction between function order and function preference?
    Sorry for the late reply - i couldn't get on the net for awhile.

    So your saying that dominant extroverted perviever is ruled by the id, creating a person willing to do many things, where as an dominant introverted perciever is ruled by the superego, creating a sort of self restriction? That muchcertainly tellies with what I understand.

    The way I look at it, function order is about the role the function plays within a person mind - how the various functions balance out to create a stable, functioning human being. Function preference is about how often a given function is expressed, regardless of how it is expressed. For a well adjusted person function preference looks similar to their function order, but unfortunately this often isn't the case. The tertiary trmptation is an example of such a thing.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  5. #15
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Sorry for the late reply - i couldn't get on the net for awhile.

    So your saying that dominant extroverted perviever is ruled by the id, creating a person willing to do many things, where as an dominant introverted perciever is ruled by the superego, creating a sort of self restriction? That muchcertainly tellies with what I understand.

    The way I look at it, function order is about the role the function plays within a person mind - how the various functions balance out to create a stable, functioning human being. Function preference is about how often a given function is expressed, regardless of how it is expressed. For a well adjusted person function preference looks similar to their function order, but unfortunately this often isn't the case. The tertiary trmptation is an example of such a thing.
    Tertiary temptation?

  6. #16
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Tertiary temptation?
    It's when the tertiary is shown in preference to the auxillary, creating either a double introversion or a double extroversion. It tends to create all sorts of problems. I think I touched on it in the body of my monologe at the start. Posts 3 and 7 describe most of the trouble it causes.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  7. #17
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    It's when the tertiary is shown in preference to the auxillary, creating either a double introversion or a double extroversion. It tends to create all sorts of problems. I think I touched on it in the body of my monologe at the start. Posts 3 and 7 describe most of the trouble it causes.
    I've been going thru a phase of turning my back on my extraverted auxiliary function resulting in diminished desire to interact with others as well as schizoid and depressive tendencies.

  8. #18
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I've been going thru a phase of turning my back on my extraverted auxiliary function resulting in diminished desire to interact with others as well as schizoid and depressive tendencies.
    Doesn't sound like a good thing. I should try to get back in touch with it. Of course, that's often easier said than done. What is your auxillary? And what led you away from it inthe first place?
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  9. #19
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Doesn't sound like a good thing. I should try to get back in touch with it. Of course, that's often easier said than done. What is your auxillary? And what led you away from it inthe first place?
    Fe. Depression I guess. What led to depression? I wasn't getting that much positive Fe feedback at workplace yet my family demanded Fe attention from me, so my reserves were empty. I am trying to make a change in how I live my life as well, yet don't know exactly how and am clumsy about it at the moment.

    Things like that.

  10. #20
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Fe. Depression I guess. What led to depression? I wasn't getting that much positive Fe feedback at workplace yet my family demanded Fe attention from me, so my reserves were empty. I am trying to make a change in how I live my life as well, yet don't know exactly how and am clumsy about it at the moment.

    Things like that.
    Well, you can't choice your family (except the one you marry) I'm afraid, and work won't always supply friends. I guess you need to friend some friends from elsewhere. If you don't like the idea of just walking into a night or social club alone and trying to strike up a conversation with a complete stranger (i wouldn't) I'd advise you to try a club of some variety. Or an evening class. There the people you meet will all have a shared interest, giving a vary obvious first topic of conversation. It's a pretty good way of moving into friendship from the diagonal, if you follow what I mean. Plus the fact that you are learning something gives a good excuse to go in the first place, which can help silence those nagging voices asking you what the point is.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

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