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[Kiersey] If SP and SJ were replaced by SF and ST...

HongDou

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how would you describe their temperaments?
 

Avocado

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SF-Nurses and Caregivers
ST-Truckers and Repairmen
 

Southern Kross

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SF-Nurses and Caregivers
ST-Truckers and Repairmen
Funny. I have ISTP auntie that's a nurse and an ESFJ uncle (her husband) who co-owns and manages an earthmoving business. :laugh: They're both pretty fantastic at their jobs too.

I'm sure you weren't entirely being serious but still...

I'll give it a go. This is a bit of ham-fisted attempt really, but it's not easy:

ST - practical, pragmatic, action-oriented people; possesses acuity of vision; prefer to speak and act directly, with minimal ambiguity; seeks to establish a functional environment; often irreverent about unworkable ideas.

SF - receptive, responsive, connection-oriented people; possesses acuity of impression; prefer to speak and act with mindfulness and appreciation; seek to establish agreeable and conducive environment.
 

hjgbujhghg

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I think besides quadras socionics actually differs NF, NT, ST and SF types. SFs - are the caregivers/ nurses or the animal's rights activists. More like hippy face of SP temperament.
STs - are the machinists/builders. More pragmatic and down to earth face of SP temperament.

I personally think these categories would be more accurate. Although both ESFP and ISTP still use Se and Ni, I can hardly imagine what would these 2 types really have in common on a deeper level of understanding.
 

HongDou

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I'll give it a go. This is a bit of ham-fisted attempt really, but it's not easy:

ST - practical, pragmatic, action-oriented people; possesses acuity of vision; prefer to speak and act directly, with minimal ambiguity; seeks to establish a functional environment; often irreverent about unworkable ideas.

SF - receptive, responsive, connection-oriented people; possesses acuity of impression; prefer to speak and act with mindfulness and appreciation; seek to establish agreeable and conducive environment.

I think this is a pretty good description considering you did it on the spot too. :yes: I wonder what it is SFs might be irreverent towards, along with NFs and NTs. This description seem to encompass all the qualities I associate with STs and SFs too.

I personally think these categories would be more accurate. Although both ESFP and ISTP still use Se and Ni, I can hardly imagine what would these 2 types really have in common on a deeper level of understanding.

Yeah, this is what I think too. I mean, although an ENFJ and I have completely different functional preference, I still would relate to them more than an INTP. I think the two middle letters cover a lot more ground than the 2nd and 4th.
 

Avocado

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I think this is a pretty good description considering you did it on the spot too. :yes: I wonder what it is SFs might be irreverent towards, along with NFs and NTs. This description seem to encompass all the qualities I associate with STs and SFs too.



Yeah, this is what I think too. I mean, although an ENFJ and I have completely different functional preference, I still would relate to them more than an INTP. I think the two middle letters cover a lot more ground than the 2nd and 4th.

Agreed.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I prefer grouping by dominant functions myself.

So:

ITP
ETJ
IFP
EFJ
ESP
ISJ
ENP
INJ

I know this doesn't solve or answer the temperament issue, and yes, I realize that some of the types which share dominant functions have very little in common temperamentally.
 

reckful

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Myers thought NT/NF/ST/SF was the most meaningful way to divide the types into four groups.

The second edition of the MBTI Manual (which she co-authored) described the STs as "the practical and matter-of-fact types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:

Myers said:
[The STs'] main interest focuses upon facts, because facts can be collected and verified directly by the senses. ... ST people approach their decisions regarding these facts by impersonal analysis, because of their trust in thinking, with its step-by-step logical process of reasoning from cause to effect, from premise to conclusion. In consequence, their personalities tend to be practical and matter-of-fact, and their best chances of success and satisfaction lie in fields that demand impersonal analysis of concrete facts, such as economics, law, surgery, business, accounting, production, and the handling of machines and materials.

That same edition of the Manual described SFs as "the sympathetic and friendly types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:

Myers said:
[The SFs] approach their decisions with personal warmth, because their feeling weighs how much things matter to themselves and others. They are more interested in facts about people than in facts about things and, therefore, they tend to be sociable and friendly. They are most likely to succeed and be satisfied in work where their personal warmth can be applied effectively to the immediate situation, as in pediatrics, nursing, teaching (especially elementary), social work, selling of tangibles, and service-with-a-smile jobs.
 

Southern Kross

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I think this is a pretty good description considering you did it on the spot too. :yes: I wonder what it is SFs might be irreverent towards, along with NFs and NTs. This description seem to encompass all the qualities I associate with STs and SFs too.
Really? Good. :)

I wasn't sure about the SF equivalent for the "irreverence" part. I started to write something about them being tetchy when an agreeable environment is disrupted, but I couldn't quite find the right words to convey it. SFs seems to like a positive, congenial, free-flowing atmosphere: with SFJs the focus is more interpersonal (ie. everyone's getting along and on the same page) and with SFPs it's more impression based (ie. the flow of ideas and sensory information) - but I don't know... :shrug:

EDIT: I guess what I'm talking about is a sense of harmony with/within the environment being disrupted

Myers thought NT/NF/ST/SF was the most meaningful way to divide the types into four groups.

The second edition of the MBTI Manual (which she co-authored) described the STs as "the practical and matter-of-fact types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:

That same edition of the Manual described SFs as "the sympathetic and friendly types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:
That's great. Thanks for that.

Seems I actually wasn't far off.
 

Eric B

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ST and SF are part of the Interaction Styles (as are NP and NJ). ST (and NJ) is "directive", and SF (and NP) is "informative". As temperament originally included the dimension of "task vs people" focus, these end up best used with classic temperament's other dimension, which is basically I/E.

This is just how it came out, since S/N was a new factor not used with classic temperament, so it maps to it in a very asymmetrical way.
 

HongDou

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Myers thought NT/NF/ST/SF was the most meaningful way to divide the types into four groups.

The second edition of the MBTI Manual (which she co-authored) described the STs as "the practical and matter-of-fact types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:

That same edition of the Manual described SFs as "the sympathetic and friendly types"; and in Gifts Differing, Myers said:

Ah, very informative. Thanks for the info! never knew.

Do any STs/SFs wanna jump in?

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] [MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION] [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] [MENTION=21822]Kyora[/MENTION] [MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION]
 

EJCC

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TBH I don't know why they started being listed as SP and SJ, to begin with. I get the whole Si vs. Se thing, but in that case why not split the Ns into NJ and NP?

Anecdotal side note: I've always related more to ESTPs than ESFJs.
 

EJCC

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Re: the OP, I'd definitely say STs are the "cut the crap, suck it up, get it done, and do it now" types. :laugh:
 

Kierva

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Ah, very informative. Thanks for the info! never knew.

Do any STs/SFs wanna jump in?

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] [MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION] [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] [MENTION=21822]Kyora[/MENTION] [MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION]

I'd rather they type via temperaments; i.e. EJ/EP/IP/IJ because they are more similar. An ISTP is going to be largely different from an ISTJ.
 

EJCC

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I prefer grouping by dominant functions myself.

So:

ITP
ETJ
IFP
EFJ
ESP
ISJ
ENP
INJ

I know this doesn't solve or answer the temperament issue, and yes, I realize that some of the types which share dominant functions have very little in common temperamentally.
Yeah I agree with this. I find 1st/2nd function groupings to be much more useful.
 

HongDou

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I'd rather they type via temperaments; i.e. EJ/EP/IP/IJ because they are more similar. An ISTP is going to be largely different from an ISTJ.

Oh yeah, I'm quite fond of these temperaments too. I love my fellow EPs. :D That said, [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] has said she relates to ESTP more than ESFJ. And I can imagine quite a few ISTJs and INFJs not relating to each other at all. But I guess there really is no winning when it comes to trying to establish these groupings. That said, I prefer NF/NT/SF/ST or EP/EJ/IP/IJ to the temperaments we have now.
 

HongDou

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I prefer grouping by dominant functions myself.

So:

ITP
ETJ
IFP
EFJ
ESP
ISJ
ENP
INJ

I know this doesn't solve or answer the temperament issue, and yes, I realize that some of the types which share dominant functions have very little in common temperamentally.
Yeah I agree with this. I find 1st/2nd function groupings to be much more useful.

But then it's not as cool and organized as having the two letter groupings. :cry: haha

I get what you guys mean though. I'm sure [MENTION=20955]johnnyyukon[/MENTION] and I could go back and forth for ages with all the Ne. But definitely grouping by second function is very useful to (obviously I relate to ESFP a lot since I typed as it for a brief moment).
 
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But then it's not as cool and organized as having the two letter groupings. :cry: haha

I get what you guys mean though. I'm sure [MENTION=20955]johnnyyukon[/MENTION] and I could go back and forth for ages with all the Ne. But definitely grouping by second function is very useful to (obviously I relate to ESFP a lot since I typed as it for a brief moment).

Wot?
 

EJCC

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Ne Ne Ne Ne Neeeeeee!

Not to be confused with Ni

 

EJCC

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But then it's not as cool and organized as having the two letter groupings. :cry: haha

I get what you guys mean though. I'm sure [MENTION=20955]johnnyyukon[/MENTION] and I could go back and forth for ages with all the Ne. But definitely grouping by second function is very useful to (obviously I relate to ESFP a lot since I typed as it for a brief moment).
I do think SJ/SP/NJ/NP and ST/SF/NT/NF groupings are more useful and accessible to n00bs. It would be a terrible idea to throw function theory at people as soon as they take the test! And I think they all have their uses. :shrug:
 
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