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  1. #21
    Member RiftsWRX's Avatar
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    Very interesting conversation... I think I need to invest time in understanding socionics. Lots of that thrown around in these conversations.

    I just know, my MBTI ESFJ, sure reads like my pure E2, and more like the 2w3 I've always identified with.

    Yet, you look at my scores when I'd take a MBTI test, and it's not like the percentages are "off the chart".

    ESFJ
    Extravert(44%) Sensing(12%) Feeling(50%) Judging(11%)
    • You have moderate preference of Extraversion over Introversion (44%)
    • You have slight preference of Sensing over Intuition (12%)
    • You have moderate preference of Feeling over Thinking (50%)
    • You have slight preference of Judging over Perceiving (11%)
    ----------
    Jorge (RiftsWRX)
    www.ProjectWRX.com

    Enneagram: 2w3 - Sexual Variant
    M-B: ESFJ
    Socionics: ESE (ESFj)

  2. #22
    Member RiftsWRX's Avatar
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    Default

    Very interesting conversation... I think I need to invest time in understanding socionics. Lots of that thrown around in these conversations.

    I just know, my MBTI ESFJ, sure reads like my pure E2, and more like the 2w3 I've always identified with.

    Yet, you look at my scores when I'd take a MBTI test, and it's not like the percentages are "off the chart".

    ESFJ
    Extravert(44%) Sensing(12%) Feeling(50%) Judging(11%)
    • You have moderate preference of Extraversion over Introversion (44%)
    • You have slight preference of Sensing over Intuition (12%)
    • You have moderate preference of Feeling over Thinking (50%)
    • You have slight preference of Judging over Perceiving (11%)
    ----------
    Jorge (RiftsWRX)
    www.ProjectWRX.com

    Enneagram: 2w3 - Sexual Variant
    M-B: ESFJ
    Socionics: ESE (ESFj)

  3. #23

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    Actually, I could see people possibly mistyping opposite types (That ESFJ / INTP example you used, Fuzzy Conduit), if they are not in a healthy state of mind when they first happen upon Type Theory. And in a case like that, not knowing enough would definitely contribute to the confusion. That was the case for me. When I first came across MBTI, I wasn't in a good place. That was probably why I dived right in, too. I wanted to feel a sense of direction (that whole existential "who am I really?" deal). Also, I was a fair bit younger than I was now. Back then I thought that I was an INTP, based on the simplistic quizzes/tests I found and not getting the best information back then. Over time, I went through a good part of the matrix as I tried getting a better understanding of myself. I don't think that I'm an ESFJ, but I am definitely sensing/feeling oriented.

    More generally speaking tho, it's definitely possible to for someone to mistype themselves with a type that is radically different from their correct one, particularly if they project the unhealthy versions of their tertiary or inferior functions more at the time that they examine such things. Stuff like that.
    Feeling - Sensing sort of person.

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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    You would think it would be more common, but it actually isn't: simple I/E mistypings.

    Years back when I was on the INFJforums, the most common mistyping was between INFJ/INFP. The least? I'd say it's a close tie between INFJ/ISFJ and INFJ/ENFJ. The former was in such low frequency mostly due to horrible stereotypes perpetuated by the membership base. The latter was mostly because people never even entertained the possibility of being extroverted. Even if they were close on a dichotomy. They assumed they weren't socially adept enough, well liked enough, and interactive enough to be ruled by an e function. It was just assumed conclusion.

    I thought I was INFJ for about 9 years (I was into typology as a teenager too), and it wasn't until early this year that I figured out I am actually ENFJ. I had never even considered extroversion as a possibility before. To many, it just seems like the most obvious thing to sort out, but in reality, it isn't. One really needs to try and avoid asking stereotypical introversion/extroversion questions to get it clear.
    I thought I was an E for a hot minute. Ignoring the functions and just looking at the dichotomy letters, it's probably the letter I am least certain of in my type. I can't see myself as an ESTP so much, but I exhibit some behavior and traits which led me to mistype as an ENTP briefly.
    Masculine presenting transgender lesbian

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiftsWRX View Post
    Very interesting conversation... I think I need to invest time in understanding socionics. Lots of that thrown around in these conversations.

    I just know, my MBTI ESFJ, sure reads like my pure E2, and more like the 2w3 I've always identified with.

    Yet, you look at my scores when I'd take a MBTI test, and it's not like the percentages are "off the chart".
    A "slight" preference for Sensing over Intuition could simply mean that your tertiary Ne is well used.
    Masculine presenting transgender lesbian

  6. #26
    Member RiftsWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    A "slight" preference for Sensing over Intuition could simply mean that your tertiary Ne is well used.
    So, in English, what does that mean?
    ----------
    Jorge (RiftsWRX)
    www.ProjectWRX.com

    Enneagram: 2w3 - Sexual Variant
    M-B: ESFJ
    Socionics: ESE (ESFj)

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowPage View Post
    Actually, I could see people possibly mistyping opposite types (That ESFJ / INTP example you used, Fuzzy Conduit), if they are not in a healthy state of mind when they first happen upon Type Theory. And in a case like that, not knowing enough would definitely contribute to the confusion. That was the case for me. When I first came across MBTI, I wasn't in a good place. That was probably why I dived right in, too. I wanted to feel a sense of direction (that whole existential "who am I really?" deal). Also, I was a fair bit younger than I was now. Back then I thought that I was an INTP, based on the simplistic quizzes/tests I found and not getting the best information back then. Over time, I went through a good part of the matrix as I tried getting a better understanding of myself. I don't think that I'm an ESFJ, but I am definitely sensing/feeling oriented.

    More generally speaking tho, it's definitely possible to for someone to mistype themselves with a type that is radically different from their correct one, particularly if they project the unhealthy versions of their tertiary or inferior functions more at the time that they examine such things. Stuff like that.
    I was not healthy when I was typing as INFx (this was around the time I joined this forum)--I'd recently lost one grandfather, learned that my grandfather-in-law (who raised my wife and has always been super cool to me) has cancer, my mother had just lost her job... among other stressful factors. All of this left me emotionally volatile and quite temperamental. Coincidentally, I didn't know then what I know now about JCF and type theory. In retrospect, I think that inferior Fe was playing a very active (and unhealthy) role in my life at that time.
    Masculine presenting transgender lesbian

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiftsWRX View Post
    So, in English, what does that mean?
    As an ESFJ, your two strongest cognitive functions should be Extraverted Feeling and Introverted Sensing. Your third strongest, or tertiary would be Extraverted Intuition.
    Masculine presenting transgender lesbian

  9. #29
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Default testing something - will it let me attach an image this time?

    Here's a little chart.

    Model B.jpg

    For anyone who doesn't know socionics:

    Ni = white triangle
    Ne = black triangle
    Si = white circle
    Se = black circle
    Ti = white square
    Te = black square
    Fi = white L
    Fe = black L

    I can talk about this, but I'd have to get into my weirdo bizarro interpretation of Alexander Bukalov's Model B in socionics, and I still don't know if I'm understanding it correctly after all these years because I haven't bothered to try digging through automatic Russian translations full of gibberish. Instead, I just test the theory by observing it happening in reality, and it's extremely accurate, the best thing I've ever seen so far.

    So, nobody would agree with my technical explanation of why these mistypings happen, because most people here aren't using Model B. But oh well. Here goes. I expect a few people's brain cells to fry as they struggle to understand a completely different system in a completely different universe - or, alternatively, everyone will just get bored and skim through it. Sorry.

    Some of these mistypings occur because these types actually have a particular information element in common, according to this model. For example, an ISTJ can be mistyped as an ISFP because they are 1. both introverted, and 2. both have +Si/-Se. In the chart, it shows a plus sign with a white circle (Si), and a minus sign with a black circle (Se) - both in the same little box, and each element can be either on the left or the right. That's assuming you can read the tiny little sideways text with the type names beside each rectangle. ISFP is in Alpha, and ISTJ is in Beta.

    I've mistyped an ENTJ as an ENFP because they are both extraverted and they both have +Ni/-Ne (+white triangle, -black triangle). When I meet an ENTJ, I can tell that they have a weakness of +Si/-Se, and that weakness is very visible to me, and I like them because of that weakness (since +Si/-Se is one of my disvalued functions) - I feel like I could be strong and protective towards them, and I feel like they need me to give them food, initiate physical contact, and whatever else sensing does. (Yes, I know I wrote a thread elsewhere that said if I retype my boyfriend again, ignore me, but...)

    Sometimes I can only see very general things about a person. I have a coworker who I really get along well with. I think he is 'Not Beta,' but I don't know what quadra he's in beyond that. (Your opposing quadra is one of the easiest ones to type people in. The quadras next to you are harder.) He is definitely irrational, and logical. So he could be an INTP, ISTP, or ENTP. He told me that he was in a car accident when he was young, and it gave him brain damage and altered his personality. He said he used to be more of a bully to other kids, but after the wreck, he became quieter and more timid. So this brain damage may be one reason why it's hard for me to type him.

    For some reason, a particular function might really stand out to you when you interact with a person. You might be only able to see that one thing really clearly - not just the functions like Ni, etc, but also the extraversion or introversion, irrational (perceiving) or rational (judging).

    That whole chart would make absolutely no sense to someone who didn't already know socionics. I won't explain why it's set up the way it is, because I don't necessarily agree with their rationale, and I wouldn't mind if they just had all the functions lined up left to right instead of in that rectangle. But, here is the order the functions go in. You start at the upper left:

    1 2
    4 3
    6 5
    7 8

    Don't ask. Just don't. They say they wanted to make it so that the upper half 'spins' clockwise and the bottom part 'spins' counterclockwise.

    Another thing that affects your ability to type someone is the drugs they use. If anyone I know is using psychiatric drugs, I find it almost impossible to figure out what type they are, because drugs drastically change all of your behavior. I have a coworker who *seems* extraverted (but might be an introvert who's really talkative and outgoing because of the drugs), and seems like some kind of sensor (but which one of my neighboring quadras? or my own quadra?). He really likes the two ESI girls and he also liked a girl who I thought was an LSE or LIE, but who could actually be just about anything because of the horrible wrongness of all my mistypings. But I try to figure out what type someone is based on which people they are most comfortable with. I really like working with this person and he seems to have problems with the same people I have problems with, so I suspected LSE for a long time, but I just cannot make up my mind about it. If he weren't on the drugs, I'd be able to see his true self much more clearly.

    Someday when I have infinite free time and infinite free money, I'm going to make my own personality type test, and it will be 100% accurate the first time, every time, for every person. Until then....

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Retmeishka View Post
    Here's a little chart.

    Model B.jpg

    For anyone who doesn't know socionics:

    Ni = white triangle
    Ne = black triangle
    Si = white circle
    Se = black circle
    Ti = white square
    Te = black square
    Fi = white L
    Fe = black L

    I can talk about this, but I'd have to get into my weirdo bizarro interpretation of Alexander Bukalov's Model B in socionics, and I still don't know if I'm understanding it correctly after all these years because I haven't bothered to try digging through automatic Russian translations full of gibberish. Instead, I just test the theory by observing it happening in reality, and it's extremely accurate, the best thing I've ever seen so far.

    So, nobody would agree with my technical explanation of why these mistypings happen, because most people here aren't using Model B. But oh well. Here goes. I expect a few people's brain cells to fry as they struggle to understand a completely different system in a completely different universe - or, alternatively, everyone will just get bored and skim through it. Sorry.

    Some of these mistypings occur because these types actually have a particular information element in common, according to this model. For example, an ISTJ can be mistyped as an ISFP because they are 1. both introverted, and 2. both have +Si/-Se. In the chart, it shows a plus sign with a white circle (Si), and a minus sign with a black circle (Se) - both in the same little box, and each element can be either on the left or the right. That's assuming you can read the tiny little sideways text with the type names beside each rectangle. ISFP is in Alpha, and ISTJ is in Beta.

    I've mistyped an ENTJ as an ENFP because they are both extraverted and they both have +Ni/-Ne (+white triangle, -black triangle). When I meet an ENTJ, I can tell that they have a weakness of +Si/-Se, and that weakness is very visible to me, and I like them because of that weakness (since +Si/-Se is one of my disvalued functions) - I feel like I could be strong and protective towards them, and I feel like they need me to give them food, initiate physical contact, and whatever else sensing does. (Yes, I know I wrote a thread elsewhere that said if I retype my boyfriend again, ignore me, but...)

    Sometimes I can only see very general things about a person. I have a coworker who I really get along well with. I think he is 'Not Beta,' but I don't know what quadra he's in beyond that. (Your opposing quadra is one of the easiest ones to type people in. The quadras next to you are harder.) He is definitely irrational, and logical. So he could be an INTP, ISTP, or ENTP. He told me that he was in a car accident when he was young, and it gave him brain damage and altered his personality. He said he used to be more of a bully to other kids, but after the wreck, he became quieter and more timid. So this brain damage may be one reason why it's hard for me to type him.

    For some reason, a particular function might really stand out to you when you interact with a person. You might be only able to see that one thing really clearly - not just the functions like Ni, etc, but also the extraversion or introversion, irrational (perceiving) or rational (judging).

    That whole chart would make absolutely no sense to someone who didn't already know socionics. I won't explain why it's set up the way it is, because I don't necessarily agree with their rationale, and I wouldn't mind if they just had all the functions lined up left to right instead of in that rectangle. But, here is the order the functions go in. You start at the upper left:

    1 2
    4 3
    6 5
    7 8

    Don't ask. Just don't. They say they wanted to make it so that the upper half 'spins' clockwise and the bottom part 'spins' counterclockwise.

    Another thing that affects your ability to type someone is the drugs they use. If anyone I know is using psychiatric drugs, I find it almost impossible to figure out what type they are, because drugs drastically change all of your behavior. I have a coworker who *seems* extraverted (but might be an introvert who's really talkative and outgoing because of the drugs), and seems like some kind of sensor (but which one of my neighboring quadras? or my own quadra?). He really likes the two ESI girls and he also liked a girl who I thought was an LSE or LIE, but who could actually be just about anything because of the horrible wrongness of all my mistypings. But I try to figure out what type someone is based on which people they are most comfortable with. I really like working with this person and he seems to have problems with the same people I have problems with, so I suspected LSE for a long time, but I just cannot make up my mind about it. If he weren't on the drugs, I'd be able to see his true self much more clearly.

    Someday when I have infinite free time and infinite free money, I'm going to make my own personality type test, and it will be 100% accurate the first time, every time, for every person. Until then....
    I actually read that entire wall of text. I didn't understand everything, but I will take more time to read up on socionics in the near future.

    I completely agree that drugs and alcohol will totally fuck with peoples' outward personas.

    I agree that it's easiest to type people who are opposites. I usually find it pretty easy to spot Extraverted Thinkers and Introverted Sensors. It can get a little tricky trying to type those who share functions in common with myself--harder to narrow it down, at least.
    Masculine presenting transgender lesbian

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