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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    f a stereotype is factually correct, it is a statistically supportable generalization rather than a stereotype. Contrast the statements: women have ovaries (not universal, but generally true); with Black people are lazy, or Jews are miserly.
    ok, this changes the entire conversation though.. if we're defining stereotypes as incorrect generalizations to began with - then an accusation of stereotyping is first and foremost an accusation that what is getting attributed is incorrect... without some sort of counter argument or reasoning, that's just an empty accusation.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    f a stereotype is factually correct, it is a statistically supportable generalization rather than a stereotype. Contrast the statements: women have ovaries (not universal, but generally true); with Black people are lazy, or Jews are miserly.
    ok, this changes the entire conversation though.. if we're defining stereotypes as incorrect generalizations to began with - then an accusation of stereotyping is first and foremost an accusation that what is getting attributed is incorrect... without some sort of counter argument or reasoning, that's just an empty accusation.

  3. #33
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    ok, this changes the entire conversation though.. if we're defining stereotypes as incorrect generalizations to began with - then an accusation of stereotyping is first and foremost an accusation that what is getting attributed is incorrect... without some sort of counter argument or reasoning, that's just an empty accusation.
    It isn't as simple as that either. Stereotypes have at least a grain of truth in them, or they would not be recognizable. Jews, for instance, do have a historical association with money, especially money lending, since in the Europe of the middle ages, other means of livelihood were often barred to them. So, a stereotype is a generalization applied far more broadly than its underlying kernel of truth, or historical origin, can support.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elocute View Post
    True, but I don't think the resources out there now make it easy to deciminate "truth." There are some extremely thought-provoking and well-written accounts of 16 types, but because many of the wirters have, at times, wildly varying conclusions, it makes it difficult to know the truth. I think this is different than someone who sees an advertisement on TV and has a knee-jer reaction. Knowing whether something helps acne can be searched for in peer-reviewed journals. There are near zero official MBTI/JCF material in comparison, For example, I've noticed a big difference in the "J" factor with XNXJ and XSXJ, but most material seems to focus on XSXJ versions.

    I'm not sure if something like this can ever be standardized, It doesn't seem to be on most researcher's list
    What do you mean by "decimate truth"?

    MBTI claims aren't that different from the kind of advertising you mention. In both cases, a person can choose to investigate the claim or conclusion further, or accept it as a knee-jerk reaction. There are refereed journals about MBTI as well, though ordinary folks often can't access scholarly journals, whether on psychology, medicine, or other fields. When authors vary significantly in their conclusions, the best approach is to read a good variety of interpretations, and look for the common elements. These are more likely to be accurate, and perhaps further research will help explain the remaining contradictions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It isn't as simple as that either. Stereotypes have at least a grain of truth in them, or they would not be recognizable. Jews, for instance, do have a historical association with money, especially money lending, since in the Europe of the middle ages, other means of livelihood were often barred to them. So, a stereotype is a generalization applied far more broadly than its underlying kernel of truth, or historical origin, can support.
    that's a fine line though.

    saying that all jews are miserly would be wrong (i really wish my mother would be at least a little bit miserly with her finances...), but to say that being miserly is a big part of the culture and upbringing common among eshkenazi (eastern european) jews would be true: while christian kids get gifts in chrismas we get hanukah guil - you give your kid money and then take it away from him by going with him to deposit it into a savings account, while some cultures ask "why would you want to succeed? you think your better then your father?!", jewish tradition has the line of "all your life work's will never pay enough for your mother's birth pain" <- essentially you owe your parents to succeed economically or your an ungrateful shmock of a child. and as we established in another conversation, there is a whole self feeding network affect of having people like you in various positions in life - the financial sector for jews is no exception. not to mention the actual clusters of connections that come along the community side of it - in my grandfather's synagogue in cape town prayer got done and the next step was everyone socializing outside and talking business while they are at it - at one point a banker was arranging a job for his niece in my grandfather's accountant firm.

    would me or anyone be able to talk about that without being accused of stereotyping? let's pretend i was jewish - would i still be able too?

    or the typological equivalence?

  6. #36
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    that's a fine line though.

    saying that all jews are miserly would be wrong (i really wish my mother would be at least a little bit miserly with her finances...), but to say that being miserly is a big part of the culture and upbringing common among eshkenazi (eastern european) jews would be true: while christian kids get gifts in chrismas we get hanukah guil - you give your kid money and then take it away from him by going with him to deposit it into a savings account, while some cultures ask "why would you want to succeed? you think your better then your father?!", jewish tradition has the line of "all your life work's will never pay enough for your mother's birth pain" <- essentially you owe your parents to succeed economically or your an ungrateful shmock of a child. and as we established in another conversation, there is a whole self feeding network affect of having people like you in various positions in life - the financial sector for jews is no exception. not to mention the actual clusters of connections that come along the community side of it - in my grandfather's synagogue in cape town prayer got done and the next step was everyone socializing outside and talking business while they are at it - at one point a banker was arranging a job for his niece in my grandfather's accountant firm.
    This is exactly what I mean. The highlighted is the grain of truth. Applying it to all Jews makes it a stereotype. I suspect there are even some eshkenazi who do not fit the des

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    would me or anyone be able to talk about that without being accused of stereotyping? let's pretend i was jewish - would i still be able too?

    or the typological equivalence?
    Yes, if you talk about it the way you did above, explaining the degree to which the generalization is applicable. The unqualified statement "all Jews are miserly", or the assumption that just because someone is INTJ he/she is good at math and science, would be stereotyping.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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