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Your "alien" type.

Xander

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I've been thinking of this for a while now. Thought I'd see what you lot thought.

Right I'm placing my type as INTP (I know, controversial but there you go) so my "opposite" is ESFJ right? Well as that is my shadow profile it should mean that at some level I run parallel to that type, should it not? Ergo the type is familiar to me.

What I was trying to think of was the type which I should (according to theory) have the most difficulty of finding common ground with, the type I'm most likely to find uncofortable to be around (at least at first).

Firstly you have the idea of switching around the function preferences as per figuring out your shadow. INTP becomes ESFJ, INTJ becomes ESFP and so on. But I figure that's missing something when trying to think what type would be your opposite (ie has no points of agreement).

IJ and EP are the same as they both have their perception function first.
IP and EJ are the same as they both have their judging function first.

Ergo would it not an ESFP be more the opposite of an INTP than an ESFJ would be? Shoudn't an ESFP and an INTP have more difficulty communicating and getting along?

Whaddya reckon?
 

spirilis

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That sounds likely for me too, although I can't say I've met many ESFPs. The few (guessed) ESFP males at work I know I get along with but we don't really "mesh" in any meaningful way, beyond laughing at each others' jokes from afar once in a while.
 

Xander

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That sounds likely for me too, although I can't say I've met many ESFPs. The few (guessed) ESFP males at work I know I get along with but we don't really "mesh" in any meaningful way, beyond laughing at each others' jokes from afar once in a while.
I was thinking as I wrote it that ESFP is a bad example.. Few people I've met could not get on with them. Mind you I am often left with the whole :shock: :huh: on my face after they've just explained their latest catastrophy that they neither thought about nor compensated for..
 

arcticangel02

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Yes, I would agree with this... my 'opposite' is ISTP (or ESTP), and I know of someone IRL of every single other type, but not either of those. I think there's probably a reason.

ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si
ISTP: Ti Se Ni Fe

Nothing matches at all. At least with an ISTJ (for example), we've got the same functions.
 

Xander

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Yes, I would agree with this... my 'opposite' is ISTP (or ESTP), and I know of someone IRL of every single other type, but not either of those. I think there's probably a reason.

ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si
ISTP: Ti Se Ni Fe

Nothing matches at all. At least with an ISTJ (for example), we've got the same functions.
Try telling Dom. My example of ISTJ is something he doesn't like too much. In fact it's the only person I've ever known him categorically not get on with... ever!
 

Aerithria

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I myself find my direct opposite to be ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne), as not only am I unfamiliar with those functions, the placement of said functions seem to prioritize the functions I'm most uncomfortable with (S, F, T, N while mine are N, T, F, S).

If that makes any sense.
 

Sling

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I think the complexity of interpersonal relations transcends definition by the MBTI system. The only real way to get reliable results in this would be to observe the idiosyncrasies of the relations.

It's not as simple as both types just "getting along". Mutual understanding doesn't necessarily equal friendliness. Even then it wouldn't be consistent across types. Put two ENTJ's in a room together and see if they don't tirelessly try to dominate one another. Then do the same experiment, but with ESTJ's, and see if they mind-link with Borg equipment and start doing some sort of weird ESTJ-organizing thing. Or take an EXFP and dump it in a room of varied types, and see if it gets along with anybody. Then again, if you take total opposites, it might even just be a one-way understanding with neither party even really giving a damn about communicating.

The bottom line is anybody can get along with anybody if they choose to do so and put forth the effort. Deeper understanding leads to better communication.
 

Haphazard

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I myself find my direct opposite to be ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne), as not only am I unfamiliar with those functions, the placement of said functions seem to prioritize the functions I'm most uncomfortable with (S, F, T, N while mine are N, T, F, S).

If that makes any sense.

Hmm. With Beebe's theory INTJ's shadow is Ne, Ti, Fe, Si, and that reversed is ISFJ, and vice versa. On INTJf, I think we've decided that INTJs and ISFJs have a hard time together, when at least ESFPs are charming, if they may get annoying after the first fifteen minutes.

I don't know. If it's a relationship anything more than a loose friendship, it kind of feels like they're intentionally trying to trip you up, even though you know they're not. They probably feel the same way around me, too.

So, I guess the formula would be, exchange the two letters in the middle. INTP --> ISFP, ESTJ --> ENFJ, etc.
 

Xander

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I myself find my direct opposite to be ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne), as not only am I unfamiliar with those functions, the placement of said functions seem to prioritize the functions I'm most uncomfortable with (S, F, T, N while mine are N, T, F, S).

If that makes any sense.
REsisting making a joke on the oservation of your function order... did you note that although between INTJ and ISFJ the individual functions are opposite that the pattern remains the same?

If you divide your functions into observational and decision making then INTJ is ODDO as is ISFJ. Now if you looked at ESFJ you would get the functions individually reversed and also the pattern of functions would be DOOD.

Either you're a shapeshifter from Star Trek or a surfer. It's a terrible choice!!!
 

Totenkindly

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Ergo would it not an ESFP be more the opposite of an INTP than an ESFJ would be? Shoudn't an ESFP and an INTP have more difficulty communicating and getting along?

Theoretically, you're correct.
Anecdotally, it would be interesting to hear people's experiences.

I usually get along okay with ESFPs, because they're SO easy-going and fun. And I'm flexy. They might be Se, I might be Ne, but we still usually play nice together.

Usually where things sour: I think they are being irresponsible or illogical and not following a path that meshes with their goals when it makes sense (they definitely don't easily connect cause with effect), while meanwhile they wish I would lighten up and not be so bound by thinking through everything and instead just need to leap into things more often. There's usually not a lot of depth for me either; they tend to focus on the positive and fun experiences (although they are willing to get all philosophical as part of their flitting around), I usually want something that goes a lot deeper and takes more focus.

ESFJ and INTP share the same functions, they're just in the reverse order... so how much does order impact connection?

We could also think about "faces" for a moment, or function pairs too.
INTP = Ti + Ne AND then Si + Fe (= ISFJ)
ESFJ = Fe + Si AND then Ne + Ti (= ENTP)

In some ways, I think INTP and ISFJ connect a little better, and ESFJ and ENTP should connect a little better. Because the functions pair up better.

Let's then look at inner face and outer face:

INTP = Ti + Si (inner) and then Ne + Fe (outer)
ESFJ = Fe + Ne (outer) and then Si + Ti (inner)
ISFJ = Si + Ti (inner) and then Fe + Ne (outer)
ESFJ = Ne + Fe (outer) and then Ti + Si (inner)

Here again, note that even if the faces are all shared, the INTP and ISFJ rely on the inner face first usually (because they are introverted) and ENTP and ESFJ rely on the external first.

Again, this is all theory. Hearing practical experience will help inform theory.
 

Xander

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^^ Hi Flexy,

Having had an ISFJ mother and a pal who's an ISFJ (also female... perhaps worth noting), it's not smooth running. I tend to grind up against their expectations where as they tear at my natural questioning of unsupported "authority" figures.

I'm not saying it's wrong... just I don't see it in the relationships I'm thinking of.
 

Totenkindly

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^^ Hi Flexy,

hmmm. If you want to flex me up.... well, it's working. ;)

Having had an ISFJ mother and a pal who's an ISFJ (also female... perhaps worth noting), it's not smooth running. I tend to grind up against their expectations where as they tear at my natural questioning of unsupported "authority" figures.

From my personal experience, I do find them less flexible than ESFJ.
But also more inclined to not say something, where ESFJ is much more apt to let me know about points of disagreement.
 

MacGuffin

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The reason our "opposite" is reversed functions (and also the exact four letter opposite) is because a shadow type has to have the same functions in order for us to use them under stress.

The INTP under stress lets Fe reign rampant, because we actually use that function, but normally as the inferior one rather than our primary. We don't switch from TiNe to TeNi.
 

Xander

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hmmm. If you want to flex me up.... well, it's working. ;)
Ahhh wanna fl... :doh:

:steam: Hey no fair. I HATE that song!!!
From my personal experience, I do find them less flexible than ESFJ.
But also more inclined to not say something, where ESFJ is much more apt to let me know about points of disagreement.
Personally I prefer to be hit with a two by four stating the problem than get sniped for transgressions I wasn't even aware were transgressions until I'd bled out!
The reason our "opposite" is reversed functions (and also the exact four letter opposite) is because a shadow type has to have the same functions in order for us to use them under stress.

The INTP under stress lets Fe reign rampant, because we actually use that function, but normally as the inferior one rather than our primary. We don't switch from TiNe to TeNi.
That's why I don't like the word 'opposite'. Opposite says to me that it should be as far away as possible... but it isn't. There are more points of integration between an ESFJ and an INTP than an INTP and an ESFP. Hence I'm using the word 'alien'... just to head off arguing :)
 

MacGuffin

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That's why I don't like the word 'opposite'. Opposite says to me that it should be as far away as possible... but it isn't. There are more points of integration between an ESFJ and an INTP than an INTP and an ESFP. Hence I'm using the word 'alien'... just to head off arguing :)

Opposite only makes sense if you are looking at the four letters. Shadow works much better.
 

Xander

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Opposite only makes sense if you are looking at the four letters. Shadow works much better.
Okay you've lost me there. I thought that ESFJ was the shadow of INTP... and it's direct opposite (in terms of letters).

Have I erred?
 

MacGuffin

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Okay you've lost me there. I thought that ESFJ was the shadow of INTP... and it's direct opposite (in terms of letters).

Have I erred?
No, you're right. That's why I'd say use "shadow" for the type that doesn't share any letters. Then you can use "opposite" or "alien" for the type that doesn't share any functions.
 

Xander

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No, you're right. That's why I'd say use "shadow" for the type that doesn't share any letters. Then you can use "opposite" or "alien" for the type that doesn't share any functions.
Aha... I thought you were on the opposition... :nice: good plan. I wasn't sure about the whole "shadow" in precise definition but if a wizard says it's so then I'll buy that for a dollar.
 

entropie

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Wow, to tell if there is an alien type is pretty tough. I have heard there are actually iNTj's, who are not depressed :) and I have heard there are actually iSfJ woman, who actually know they are taking things for granted to please the community and develpoed a fine sense of humor to undermine every step they take with sarcasm.

I guess types that alienate me are mostly F-ish types. They dont make me angry, they make me feeling depressed, cause some of them can think they are the total goal getters and then even start to accuse you of lacking something they like and furthermore to compare themselves to others and sort all those out of does not match.

That's kinda tough concerning the spelling, opposites attract.

What alienates me aswell are people, who quit searching. That is being expressed in having an answer to everything. I think that discurs is very important to find answers. You can think about a problem for a long time on your own, but to grasp all the input, you definitly need discurs. And the other thing is depression. In my opionion there is no way to be depressed as long as you are alive. That does not mean, noone is allowed to be depressed anymore, I am depressed from time to time myself. But one should always reach the point, when one things, ok I had enough of depression :).

Well spoken easily, doing it is harder, I know.. xD
 
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