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  1. #21
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I see how this has caught on a bit, with some people adopting it as their type code.
    Thinking about it more, it really is a better system. The first letter is the dominant attitude, with the second letter as the dominant function. So the first two letters tell you right out what the dominant function is. Makes me really wonder why Myers and Briggs didn't think of it this way.

    Again; losing the J/P does make some things more diffifult. Like here now are what some of the type groups become:

    Temperament:

    Rational: N/T (NT or TN)
    Idealist: N/F (NF or FN)
    Guardian: IS, ExS
    Artisan: ES, IxS

    Interaction Style:

    Chart the course: IN and I + S/T (IST or ITS)
    In Charge: ExN and E + S/T (EST or ETS)
    Behind the Scenes: IxN and I + S/F (ISF or IFS)
    Get Things Going: EN and E + S/F (ESF or EFS)

    The Interaction Styles are just as complicated (two different letter combinations differing by S and N), but now temperament becomes nearly just as complicated, rather than being defined by simple two letter codes.

    Thje factors of temperament and Interaction Style (other than I/E) also become impossible to simplify, especially along the lines of S/N.

    Directing: S/T (ST or TS) and IN/ExN
    Informing: S/F (SF of FS) and EN/IxN

    For Pragmatic, Cooperative, Structure and Motive, you basically end up listing out all the types they share. (Pragmatic would be N/T, ES, IxS; with no common letter groupings to further reduce them down to. Process/Outcome actually becomes more simplifiable on the N side, with Process as EN/IN and Outcome as ExN/IxN; but on the S side, it breaks down again. Process for example is ESF, EFS, IST, ITS).

    J, BTW, becomes ET, IxT, EF, IxF, and P becomes ES, IxS, EN, IxN
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #22
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    It seems that people on all of the forums still miss the J/P understanding. I noticed threads on each of them in the past week. The J/P dichotomy is repetetive and redundant since it was only used to distiinguish the extraversion of the S/N and T/F in all types. Myers asserts that Jung did not give enough notice to introverted types, therefore created her inverted theory to show that the extraverted function is being shown. I liked the creativity, but it's not functional and runs contrary to Jung. Based on his work was explicit in contrasting introverts and extraverts by saying, "The two types are so essentially different, presenting so striking a contrast, that their existence, even to the uninitiated in psychological matters becomes an obvious fact, when once attention has been drawn to it. Who does not know those taciturn, impenetrable, often shy natures, who form such a vivid contrast to these other open, sociable, serene maybe, or at least friendly and accessible characters, who are on good terms with all the world, or, even when disagreeing with it, still hold a relation to it by which they and it are mutually affected."

    Myers also contradicts Jung on the auxiliary matter for introverts by giving the function greater recognition than Jung in creating the fourth dichotomy. Jung clearly notes that about the auxiliary and subsequent functions, "..the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function. Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function."

    Where does this leave us? Referencing back to Jung's statements, I think he would have disagreed with J/P if not the entire code. He could have (if found it useful to have a code) referenced to the actual functions and acknowledging that Ti-Ne represents INTP equally well, as does Ni-Te for INTJ and so on. Or he may have given Myers-Briggs her kudos, but found the J/P problematic and redundant Jung may have chosen a simpler code to reflec the varied types:

    INTJ=INT (Ni-Te)
    INTP=ITN (Ti-Ne)
    INFP=IFN (Fi-Ne)
    INFJ=INF (Ni-Fe)

    ISTJ=IST (Si-Te)
    ISTP=ITS (Ti-Se)
    ISFJ=ISF(Si-Fe)
    ISFP=IFS (Fi-Se)

    ENTJ=ETN (Te-Ni)
    ENTP=ENT (Ne-Ti)
    ENFJ=EFN (Fe-Ni)
    ENFP=ENF (Ne-Fi)

    ESTJ=ETS (Te-Si)
    ESTP=EST (Se-Ti)
    ESFJ=EFS (Fe-Si)
    ESFP=ESF (Se-Fi)
    This system was actually listed somewhere in Jung's book, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, your system makes more sense functionally speaking and in Jungian terms. It also brings MBTI theory into closer accord with Socionics.

    Although there is one thing I have a concern about, though... J/P seems to measure something. It seems to me that Js are people who get things done on time, think about what they'll do to reach their goals, and have something of a self-preservation instinct. Ps, on the other hand, are all adventurous and everything, just run around all over the place, take risks they don't stand to gain from, struggle to make themselves do anything they don't want to, have a poor understanding of boundaries/priorities, etc...

    Can you explain why this is? Does it have more to do with rationality/irrationality than J/P?

  3. #23
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    But I think we most agree that Keirsey only confused things when he used Myers-Briggs' four letter codes instead of staying with his titles. Since his theory is not based on the same thing, he has muddled things for those who attempt to correlated the two systems. Besides Myers-Briggs saw temperaments from her system as ST-SF-NT-NF.

    Berens also used the four letter codes, however as she develops her system more and weens herself from Keirsey she refers to her titles more. The two word titles are good because they have meaning for the individual as they see themselves and for those who see the person differently, hence Analyzer/Operator (ISTP), Designer/Theorizer (INTP) etc.

    When I considered the three letter codes, I was basing it more on Jung's theory than MBTI. Since Myers-Briggs believes that the dominant function is less prevalent in introverts my codes reflect Jung's thoughts that the dominant function is prevalent (regardless of attitude) and the auxiliary is in clear subordination:
    11. The Principal and Auxiliary Functions

    Accurate investigation of the individual case consistently reveals the fact that, in conjunction with the most differentiated function, another function of secondary importance, and therefore of inferior differentiation in consciousness, is constantly present, and is a -- relatively determining factor. [p. 514]

    For the sake of clarity let us again recapitulate: The products of all the functions can be conscious, but we speak of the consciousness of a function only when not merely its application is at the disposal of the will, but when at the same time its principle is decisive for the orientation of consciousness..... This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first. But, since it is a vital condition for the conscious adaptation-process that constantly clear and unambiguous aims should be in evidence, the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function. Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom thinking and feeling stand upon the same [p. 515] level, whereby both have equal motive power in con~sdousness. But, in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of a relatively undeveloped thinking and feeling. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.

    Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking -- for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking -- but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. As soon as they reached the same level of differentiation as thinking, they would cause a change of attitude, which would contradict the tendency of thinking. For they would convert the judging attitude into a perceiving one; whereupon the principle of rationality indispensable to thought would be suppressed in favour of the irrationality of mere perception. Hence the auxiliary function is possible and useful only in so far as it serves the leading function, without making any claim to the autonomy of its own principle....

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    But I think we most agree that Keirsey only confused things when he used Myers-Briggs' four letter codes instead of staying with his titles. Since his theory is not based on the same thing, he has muddled things for those who attempt to correlated the two systems.
    I'm sure he knew exactly what he was doing, though. He wouldn't have experienced anything like the success he had. Besides, the types do correlate. He defines them in different ways.

  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I tend to aggree with Jack. That whole J and p thing does have the slight meaning that explains, if someone is more eager to use a rational or irrational function on the world. That whole explanation oj "Judgement" and "perceiving" totally got it wrong, because the main point was concentrated on the distribution of functions. The type code is merely a mnemonic to describe function distribution.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I'm sure he knew exactly what he was doing, though. He wouldn't have experienced anything like the success he had. Besides, the types do correlate. He defines them in different ways.
    Oh without a doubt, the mans marketing of the system should be applauded. Buts its temperament not type and he admits it. As for correlating Jack, I would like to know your ideas because as I have said before Keirsey is not consistent with his descriptions since he writes the ISJ and ISPs with considering the common function Si and Se respectively, however writes the NT and NF descriptions using both the dominant and auxiliary functions combined. Read his descriptions of ISTP and ISFP and see how far you read before there is an after thought of the aforementioned having a dominant function if at all. Clearly he had to do it to keep his radical theory of SJ and SP cohesive, but I appreciate Keirsey more now than I did eight years ago since I now can appreciate that his system is separate.

  7. #27
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well I saw a certain logic behind it. If you have the S concentrating on objects, things and facts, it is just the question, how he interacts with them; namely passive or aggressive. The two words dont fit in a general sense, though.

    And when you have the N, who sees primarily relations between objects, you cant really decide if he does this passively or aggressively. Because an aggressive Seer would be commonly interpretated as being nuts.Then you have to decide by which means he rationalizes the information gathered, namely T or F.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Oh without a doubt, the mans marketing of the system should be applauded. Buts its temperament not type and he admits it. As for correlating Jack, I would like to know your ideas because as I have said before Keirsey is not consistent with his descriptions since he writes the ISJ and ISPs with considering the common function Si and Se respectively, however writes the NT and NF descriptions using both the dominant and auxiliary functions combined.
    Does he go into function use at all? I don't remember, lost the book a long time ago, but I did glean that he values functional analysis little, like myself. Too much extrapolation.

  9. #29
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I thought that to be the prime fun@extrapolation
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #30
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I tend to aggree with Jack. That whole J and p thing does have the slight meaning that explains, if someone is more eager to use a rational or irrational function on the world. That whole explanation oj "Judgement" and "perceiving" totally got it wrong, because the main point was concentrated on the distribution of functions. The type code is merely a mnemonic to describe function distribution.
    If I am not mistaken, Myers-Briggs created the codes merely to make it easier to determine type with the indicator. It was easier to create a forced choice question between E/I, S/N, T/F and so on than to create a question to determine Ti, Si, Ni, etc, hence the dichotomies.

    She also leads readers to believe that Jung gave very little credence to introversion and based his theory on extraversion for the most part, resulting in the reversal of codes to show the J/P on introverted types. However as I have continued to argue the final code is redundant since it merely repeats which function extraverts.

    Referring back to the quote I pasted above from Jung, the auxiliary function is not strong enough on its own to be given the consideration proposed by Myers-Briggs. It merely gives a differing flavor to the type when you change out the auxiliary. Myers-Briggs and Keirsey have done impeccable work to expound on type, but their theories only correlate because Keirsey used the four letter codes the same as Socionics and Berens. Just MHO.

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