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  1. #1
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Default Fe / Ti types: define passive aggressive behaviour

    I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

    The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

    Here's what to do:

    1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

    2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  2. #2
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

    Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

    Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

    The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

    Here's what to do:

    1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

    2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.
    It's passive-aggressiveness when you're upset but yet can't directly say what's on your mind. Instead you just make sarcastic remarks and when asked if you have a problem, you deny having a problem. Then good luck figuring it out, let alone solve the problem!!! I hate passive-aggressive stuff.

    Hmm I think it might also be passive-aggressiveness when something feels "off" in my interaction with someone but I can't quite put a finger on that one. It's like the person makes themselves sound all correct and nice/proper yet they seem to be trying to show me in a bad light in front of others. The content of their remarks are definitely negative yet they make it sound like it's all proper. It's really so subtle I needed years to even notice this theme more consciously. The way I react to it is, yeah I react pretty aggressively so I guess that does make me look like the bad person yeah. I think I need better Fe to entirely figure out this subtle strategy. Or analyse this a lot more with Ti. I've already started on it

    Example? Well, I knew this guy online, he had a little online chatroom he made himself. Me and a few other people regularly went there and it was all fun, then one day I noticed the guy started making weird sarcastic comments and jokes targeting me. I had no idea why anything would be wrong so I first just brushed it off. Then the frequency of the weird jokes went up even more and the feeling of a negative atmosphere was almost tangible for me. So yeah it got conscious enough for me to realize something was probably off. I asked the guy if he had a problem and what it was and I said I'm asking because of all those jokes. He said they are just jokes. Uhm... sure. I wanted to PM him about it but forgot to do it right away and then finally one evening he suddenly just blew up. He wasn't even capable of explaining the problem he had though. Just made-up weird theories of his that he couldn't even directly state to me, I heard most of it from others or heard it when he was saying it to others. Well at least he did get direct enough at that one point.

    For the second version, I can't recall an exact situation right now where the passive-aggressive behaviour occurred. But one of these people does it pretty often and I've confronted her about it each single time it happened - I learnt over time to appear a bit more proper at least in front of others by confronting her in private more often. Well I do still call her out on it without any inhibition right there and then regardless of whether the situation is in public but if I want to escalate it, I take it to private. Anyway, her response is usually really nonchalant, explicitly avoiding conflict. Like, to an extreme degree, she just "closes off". That's the sort of "response" I don't know how to handle well heh :P The only thing I can do in response is up my intensity more but yeah that's not always useful.

    Anyway... OP: what pattern did you notice? Will you share it later?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

    Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

    Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.
    Wow you put all this so well. My instincts definitely fire&signal in such situations but I haven't yet found the best way to deal with it when my direct approach doesn't solve the problem. Would it be a way to prove things if one collected all the evidence and show all of it together? The other thing I can think of is, whenever it's in my power I can disallow certain kinds of behaviour, essentially creating my own rules about what's the threshold for "bad". That would only work in certain situations of course. I like this thread, I've been thinking about this topic recently and been trying to analyse it, to find ways that work against these strategies as universally as possible :P.

  4. #4
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

    Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

    Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.
    This is well-stated. An example for me is when at work, a coworker creates all sorts of convoluted procedural and policy hurdles to having something accomplished, when in reality they simply do not like me personally, or they do not like the task they're being asked to perform.

  5. #5
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I put this in my blog a couple of days ago because I wasn't sure if it belonged in this thread or in another thread, since it has elements that apply to both topics. Although the last paragraph is the most applicable to this thread, I think the rest of the info is relevant, too.

    Excerpts from "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by George K. Simon, Jr., Ph. D.

    The Nature of Human Aggression
    Our instinct to fight is a close cousin of our survival instinct. Most everyone "fights" to survive and prosper, and most of the fighting we do is neither physically violent nor inherently destructive.
    […]
    In this book, the term aggression will refer to the forceful energy we all expend in our daily bids to survive, advance ourselves, secure things we believe will bring us some kind of pleasure, and remove obstacles to those ends.

    People do a lot more fighting in their daily lives than we have ever been willing to acknowledge. The urge to fight is fundamental and instinctual.
    […]
    Fighting is not inherently wrong or harmful. Fighting openly and fairly for our legitimate needs is often necessary and constructive. When we fight for what we truly need while respecting the rights and needs of others and taking care not to needlessly injure them, our behavior is best labeled assertive, and assertive behavior is one of the most healthy and necessary human behaviors. […] But when we fight unnecessarily, or with little concern about how others are being affected, our behavior is most appropriately labeled aggressive. […] Adopting a perspective advanced largely by Carl Jung, I would assert that the evil that sometimes arises from a person's aggressive behavior necessarily stems from his or her failure to "own" and discipline this most basic human instinct.

    Two Important Types of Aggression
    Two of the fundamental types of aggression (others will be discussed later) are overt and covert aggression. When you're determined to have your way or gain advantage and you're open, direct, and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win", get your way, dominate, or control, but are subtle, underhanded, or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Concealing overt displays of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into backing-off, backing-down, or giving in is a very powerful manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

    Covert and Passive-Aggression
    […] Covert and passive-aggression are both indirect ways to aggress but they are not at all the same thing. Passive-aggression is, as the term implies, aggressing through passivity. Examples of passive-aggression are playing the game of emotional "get-back" with someone by resisting cooperation with them, giving them the "silent treatment" because you're angry with them, pouting or whining, not so accidentally "forgetting" something they wanted you to do because you're angry and didn't really feel like obliging them, etc. In contrast, covert aggression is very active, albeit veiled, aggression.
    An example of passive-aggression imo: after asking my middle sis to please make sure to shut the front door so that my cats wouldn't escape the house, she would leave the door just slightly open every time she went out. Why did I see this as passive-aggressive and not just forgetful? Because before I asked her to make sure to shut the door all the way, she usually would shut the door all the way, and she would shut doors at other people's houses all the way.


    ETA: I notice that I gave an example outside of myself.
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    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #6
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

    going along with something that makes you feel angry giving off the impression that it doesn't, and then finally exploding out of nowhere. or doing snotty underhanded things to express your aggression.

    2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

    - telling someone you don't mind if they borrow your clothes (but you do), after it happens for a while, you snap on them, lumping the clothes borrowing into every other thing they've ever done where you felt taken advantage of and accusing them of being inconsiderate.

    - same situation, someone's borrowing your clothes, and you tell them it's fine (but it's not). this time you start 'borrowing' things from them in order to make them feel put out. make comments on how the clothes fit them, implying they look better on you, or something.


    i'm *much* more prone to the first type i've described. for me, it comes from a place of not wanting to admit to myself, let alone the other person, that i feel the way i do. that leads to bottling and eventual exploding in a moment of weakness. the second type is like the worst thing in the world, and i do my best to avoid people who pull that shit. no thanks.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  7. #7
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

    The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

    Here's what to do:
    1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

    Veiled, indirect aggression. Words\promises and actions\results not matching. Deliberate incooperation while appearing cooperative.

    2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

    Person A promises to do something for me then forgets doing it if I don't follow up.

    Person A calls me not normal in a seemingly joking manner and then claims he was just joking when confronted, furthermore, tries to spin it on me that I cannot take a joke and there's something wrong with me.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.
    Expressing negative thoughts, feelings, and/or behaviours in an indirect manner. I think it really does stem from not being able to manifest anger and hurt in a healthy way.

    2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

    Passive aggressive behaviour I have exhibited in my life:
    - the silent treatment: the last time I've done this was a few years ago. It gets too exhausting to hang on to the stubbornness and resentment. I've never answered with the classic, "What's wrong?", "Nothing", as if they ever asked what was wrong, I told them in no uncertain terms. But in my instances, it was more of a stubbornness when, in my opinion, the other failed to recognize what they've done, and then failed to approach me about it, indicating that they didn't care enough, because I shouldn't be the one making the first move to reach out to them, when it was they who did something wrong (in my biased perception). Juvenile. Tiring. Weighs you down to the same static place. It also was a very bad alternate to managing my anger. When I let my anger fly, it's not pretty. And I really don't feel very in control. It was the lesser of the two evils, because I would be vibrating with anger, and knew that if I released it, in the state I was in, it would not go over well. So, I'd remove myself from the situation. But, rather than broach the topic after I've cooled off some, it would be the same thoughts circling and circling again, making me angrier. And, it never really subsided. Now, I just get on with it, approach them, tell my piece, and move on. I've learned to "care less", which is a good thing. Learning how to care only about a select few people and opinions, and letting the others just slide.

    - oneupmanship: rarely, but it does happen, where it has taken on the form of passive-aggressiveness. It's essentially games, mind games. However, most times, when I partake in oneupmanship, it's directly communicated that that's what I'm doing. And the people I engage in this with, are the type of people who I already know can't help but try to oneup, as well. So, it's a "willing" player. They just can't get a hold of the hole in the game. A juvenile game of constantly keeping something dangling in front of the other, but always just out of their reach, yet they keep wanting to reach for it. So, in that way, both players know what is being done. How it's done is where the mind games come in. An issue of mine that I am aiming to curb. I must refrain from going on a crusade whenever I come across self-righteous, willfully ignorant, arrogrant assholes, and this becomes my knee-jerk reaction to them. Sigh.

    - deliberate procrastination: and I'm guilty of this even to this day, when it comes to my father. If he demands anything, and I know that there's no logical reason to not comply, the fact that it was conveyed as a demand, in an authoritarian tone, makes me procrastinate, so I get to have that sense of (silly) control: ON MY TERMS.

    Otherwise, I'm pretty direct in my communication. I aim to be assertive, but I know that I do have aggressive moments. I think this is where Ti being modified by Fe is key. Because, if I don't pause for a moment, to really think about how something can be perceived, given the audience, then my Ti releases without filter. And Ti has a razor sharp edge. Cushioning it with Fe, as I've gotten older, has really been my cornerstone of self-improvement in terms of interpersonal communication. It's a work in progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    (...) deliberate procrastination: and I'm guilty of this even to this day, when it comes to my father. If he demands anything, and I know that there's no logical reason to not comply, the fact that it was conveyed as a demand, in an authoritarian tone, makes me procrastinate, so I get to have that sense of (silly) control: ON MY TERMS.
    Oh. Now I'm thinking someone I know maybe is being passive-aggressive. He reacts much like this to me. I haven't managed to solve that issue with him yet. He did admit that he felt like demands were being placed on him even when reasonable.


    Otherwise, I'm pretty direct in my communication. I aim to be assertive, but I know that I do have aggressive moments. I think this is where Ti being modified by Fe is key. Because, if I don't pause for a moment, to really think about how something can be perceived, given the audience, then my Ti releases without filter. And Ti has a razor sharp edge. Cushioning it with Fe, as I've gotten older, has really been my cornerstone of self-improvement in terms of interpersonal communication. It's a work in progress.
    Are you IxTP or ExTP? And how old are you? Just curious (In my case, even if I think about it, I'll slip over/fail to notice where I could add a few more Fe niceties.)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    I will use a story to illustrate my definition. Once upon a time a mom was shopping with her three year old. He kept standing up in the cart. She finally threatened to spank him if he did it again. He promptly sat down and pouted. A few minutes later she said,"I'm glad to see that you're sitting down now." The child looked at her with fixed eyes and said, "yeah, but I'm still standing on the inside." So, passive aggressive, to me, is doing what you have to do to keep from being punished all the while, waiting for a chance to launch your personal revolution.

    Another example might be the guy who sits quietly by while his boss rants, raves and goes on endlessly about how he wants stuff done. He nods his understanding, but as soon as the boss is out of sight he does the way he wants to.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

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