[MBTI General] Fe / Ti types: define passive aggressive behaviour

[PeaceBaby]

I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

Here's what to do:

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

 

[á´…eparted]

Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.

 

[infinite]

I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

Here's what to do:

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

It's passive-aggressiveness when you're upset but yet can't directly say what's on your mind. Instead you just make sarcastic remarks and when asked if you have a problem, you deny having a problem. Then good luck figuring it out, let alone solve the problem!!! I hate passive-aggressive stuff.

Hmm I think it might also be passive-aggressiveness when something feels "off" in my interaction with someone but I can't quite put a finger on that one. It's like the person makes themselves sound all correct and nice/proper yet they seem to be trying to show me in a bad light in front of others. The content of their remarks are definitely negative yet they make it sound like it's all proper. It's really so subtle I needed years to even notice this theme more consciously. The way I react to it is, yeah I react pretty aggressively so I guess that does make me look like the bad person yeah. I think I need better Fe to entirely figure out this subtle strategy. Or analyse this a lot more with Ti. I've already started on it

Example? Well, I knew this guy online, he had a little online chatroom he made himself. Me and a few other people regularly went there and it was all fun, then one day I noticed the guy started making weird sarcastic comments and jokes targeting me. I had no idea why anything would be wrong so I first just brushed it off. Then the frequency of the weird jokes went up even more and the feeling of a negative atmosphere was almost tangible for me. So yeah it got conscious enough for me to realize something was probably off. I asked the guy if he had a problem and what it was and I said I'm asking because of all those jokes. He said they are just jokes. Uhm... sure. I wanted to PM him about it but forgot to do it right away and then finally one evening he suddenly just blew up. He wasn't even capable of explaining the problem he had though. Just made-up weird theories of his that he couldn't even directly state to me, I heard most of it from others or heard it when he was saying it to others. Well at least he did get direct enough at that one point.

For the second version, I can't recall an exact situation right now where the passive-aggressive behaviour occurred. But one of these people does it pretty often and I've confronted her about it each single time it happened - I learnt over time to appear a bit more proper at least in front of others by confronting her in private more often. Well I do still call her out on it without any inhibition right there and then regardless of whether the situation is in public but if I want to escalate it, I take it to private. Anyway, her response is usually really nonchalant, explicitly avoiding conflict. Like, to an extreme degree, she just "closes off". That's the sort of "response" I don't know how to handle well heh The only thing I can do in response is up my intensity more but yeah that's not always useful.

Anyway... OP: what pattern did you notice? Will you share it later?

Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.

Wow you put all this so well. My instincts definitely fire&signal in such situations but I haven't yet found the best way to deal with it when my direct approach doesn't solve the problem. Would it be a way to prove things if one collected all the evidence and show all of it together? The other thing I can think of is, whenever it's in my power I can disallow certain kinds of behaviour, essentially creating my own rules about what's the threshold for "bad". That would only work in certain situations of course. I like this thread, I've been thinking about this topic recently and been trying to analyse it, to find ways that work against these strategies as universally as possible .

 

[onemoretime]

Easy: Passive-aggressive behavior is when someone is attempting to offend, insight anger, create ill feelings, achieve an underhanded goal, in such a way where if questioned, etc., they can come up with a spun story, dance around it, and you're unable to externally and explicitly prove what they're really doing. It appears one way, but it's actually another. Hence, they can more easily get away with it.

Everything is done under a threshold of "what is bad". If you try and call them on it, you run the risk (if you do it wrong) of being made out to be the bad guy or the one who is wrong.

Essentially, it's a mask over true intention, and if you try and remove the mask, you might trip the wire that is connected to a bomb.

This is well-stated. An example for me is when at work, a coworker creates all sorts of convoluted procedural and policy hurdles to having something accomplished, when in reality they simply do not like me personally, or they do not like the task they're being asked to perform.

 

[Eilonwy]

I put this in my blog a couple of days ago because I wasn't sure if it belonged in this thread or in another thread, since it has elements that apply to both topics. Although the last paragraph is the most applicable to this thread, I think the rest of the info is relevant, too.

Excerpts from "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by George K. Simon, Jr., Ph. D.

The Nature of Human Aggression
Our instinct to fight is a close cousin of our survival instinct. Most everyone "fights" to survive and prosper, and most of the fighting we do is neither physically violent nor inherently destructive.
[…]
In this book, the term aggression will refer to the forceful energy we all expend in our daily bids to survive, advance ourselves, secure things we believe will bring us some kind of pleasure, and remove obstacles to those ends.

People do a lot more fighting in their daily lives than we have ever been willing to acknowledge. The urge to fight is fundamental and instinctual.
[…]
Fighting is not inherently wrong or harmful. Fighting openly and fairly for our legitimate needs is often necessary and constructive. When we fight for what we truly need while respecting the rights and needs of others and taking care not to needlessly injure them, our behavior is best labeled assertive, and assertive behavior is one of the most healthy and necessary human behaviors. […] But when we fight unnecessarily, or with little concern about how others are being affected, our behavior is most appropriately labeled aggressive. […] Adopting a perspective advanced largely by Carl Jung, I would assert that the evil that sometimes arises from a person's aggressive behavior necessarily stems from his or her failure to "own" and discipline this most basic human instinct.

Two Important Types of Aggression
Two of the fundamental types of aggression (others will be discussed later) are overt and covert aggression. When you're determined to have your way or gain advantage and you're open, direct, and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win", get your way, dominate, or control, but are subtle, underhanded, or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Concealing overt displays of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into backing-off, backing-down, or giving in is a very powerful manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

Covert and Passive-Aggression
[…] Covert and passive-aggression are both indirect ways to aggress but they are not at all the same thing. Passive-aggression is, as the term implies, aggressing through passivity. Examples of passive-aggression are playing the game of emotional "get-back" with someone by resisting cooperation with them, giving them the "silent treatment" because you're angry with them, pouting or whining, not so accidentally "forgetting" something they wanted you to do because you're angry and didn't really feel like obliging them, etc. In contrast, covert aggression is very active, albeit veiled, aggression.

An example of passive-aggression imo: after asking my middle sis to please make sure to shut the front door so that my cats wouldn't escape the house, she would leave the door just slightly open every time she went out. Why did I see this as passive-aggressive and not just forgetful? Because before I asked her to make sure to shut the door all the way, she usually would shut the door all the way, and she would shut doors at other people's houses all the way.


ETA: I notice that I gave an example outside of myself.

 

[five sounds]

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

going along with something that makes you feel angry giving off the impression that it doesn't, and then finally exploding out of nowhere. or doing snotty underhanded things to express your aggression.

2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

- telling someone you don't mind if they borrow your clothes (but you do), after it happens for a while, you snap on them, lumping the clothes borrowing into every other thing they've ever done where you felt taken advantage of and accusing them of being inconsiderate.

- same situation, someone's borrowing your clothes, and you tell them it's fine (but it's not). this time you start 'borrowing' things from them in order to make them feel put out. make comments on how the clothes fit them, implying they look better on you, or something.


i'm *much* more prone to the first type i've described. for me, it comes from a place of not wanting to admit to myself, let alone the other person, that i feel the way i do. that leads to bottling and eventual exploding in a moment of weakness. the second type is like the worst thing in the world, and i do my best to avoid people who pull that shit. no thanks.

 

[yeghor]

I've noticed for some time a pattern that I think merits exploration. I think that there's a loose correlation between type and what each type grouping sees as passive aggressive behaviour.

The definitions of passive-aggressiveness are being deliberately left out here. First, because there is a lot of variation between definitions. Second, because a lot of folks seem to have their own definition, and that's the part that might be revealing.

Here's what to do:

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.

Veiled, indirect aggression. Words\promises and actions\results not matching. Deliberate incooperation while appearing cooperative.

2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

Person A promises to do something for me then forgets doing it if I don't follow up.

Person A calls me not normal in a seemingly joking manner and then claims he was just joking when confronted, furthermore, tries to spin it on me that I cannot take a joke and there's something wrong with me.

 

[Qre:us]

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.
Expressing negative thoughts, feelings, and/or behaviours in an indirect manner. I think it really does stem from not being able to manifest anger and hurt in a healthy way.

2.) please share an example or two of what you see as passive-aggressive behaviour. Anecdotes are welcome.

Passive aggressive behaviour I have exhibited in my life:
- the silent treatment: the last time I've done this was a few years ago. It gets too exhausting to hang on to the stubbornness and resentment. I've never answered with the classic, "What's wrong?", "Nothing", as if they ever asked what was wrong, I told them in no uncertain terms. But in my instances, it was more of a stubbornness when, in my opinion, the other failed to recognize what they've done, and then failed to approach me about it, indicating that they didn't care enough, because I shouldn't be the one making the first move to reach out to them, when it was they who did something wrong (in my biased perception). Juvenile. Tiring. Weighs you down to the same static place. It also was a very bad alternate to managing my anger. When I let my anger fly, it's not pretty. And I really don't feel very in control. It was the lesser of the two evils, because I would be vibrating with anger, and knew that if I released it, in the state I was in, it would not go over well. So, I'd remove myself from the situation. But, rather than broach the topic after I've cooled off some, it would be the same thoughts circling and circling again, making me angrier. And, it never really subsided. Now, I just get on with it, approach them, tell my piece, and move on. I've learned to "care less", which is a good thing. Learning how to care only about a select few people and opinions, and letting the others just slide.

- oneupmanship: rarely, but it does happen, where it has taken on the form of passive-aggressiveness. It's essentially games, mind games. However, most times, when I partake in oneupmanship, it's directly communicated that that's what I'm doing. And the people I engage in this with, are the type of people who I already know can't help but try to oneup, as well. So, it's a "willing" player. They just can't get a hold of the hole in the game. A juvenile game of constantly keeping something dangling in front of the other, but always just out of their reach, yet they keep wanting to reach for it. So, in that way, both players know what is being done. How it's done is where the mind games come in. An issue of mine that I am aiming to curb. I must refrain from going on a crusade whenever I come across self-righteous, willfully ignorant, arrogrant assholes, and this becomes my knee-jerk reaction to them. Sigh.

- deliberate procrastination: and I'm guilty of this even to this day, when it comes to my father. If he demands anything, and I know that there's no logical reason to not comply, the fact that it was conveyed as a demand, in an authoritarian tone, makes me procrastinate, so I get to have that sense of (silly) control: ON MY TERMS.

Otherwise, I'm pretty direct in my communication. I aim to be assertive, but I know that I do have aggressive moments. I think this is where Ti being modified by Fe is key. Because, if I don't pause for a moment, to really think about how something can be perceived, given the audience, then my Ti releases without filter. And Ti has a razor sharp edge. Cushioning it with Fe, as I've gotten older, has really been my cornerstone of self-improvement in terms of interpersonal communication. It's a work in progress.

 

[infinite]

(...) deliberate procrastination: and I'm guilty of this even to this day, when it comes to my father. If he demands anything, and I know that there's no logical reason to not comply, the fact that it was conveyed as a demand, in an authoritarian tone, makes me procrastinate, so I get to have that sense of (silly) control: ON MY TERMS.

Oh. Now I'm thinking someone I know maybe is being passive-aggressive. He reacts much like this to me. I haven't managed to solve that issue with him yet. He did admit that he felt like demands were being placed on him even when reasonable.

Otherwise, I'm pretty direct in my communication. I aim to be assertive, but I know that I do have aggressive moments. I think this is where Ti being modified by Fe is key. Because, if I don't pause for a moment, to really think about how something can be perceived, given the audience, then my Ti releases without filter. And Ti has a razor sharp edge. Cushioning it with Fe, as I've gotten older, has really been my cornerstone of self-improvement in terms of interpersonal communication. It's a work in progress.

Are you IxTP or ExTP? And how old are you? Just curious (In my case, even if I think about it, I'll slip over/fail to notice where I could add a few more Fe niceties.)

 

[Ene]

I will use a story to illustrate my definition. Once upon a time a mom was shopping with her three year old. He kept standing up in the cart. She finally threatened to spank him if he did it again. He promptly sat down and pouted. A few minutes later she said,"I'm glad to see that you're sitting down now." The child looked at her with fixed eyes and said, "yeah, but I'm still standing on the inside." So, passive aggressive, to me, is doing what you have to do to keep from being punished all the while, waiting for a chance to launch your personal revolution.

Another example might be the guy who sits quietly by while his boss rants, raves and goes on endlessly about how he wants stuff done. He nods his understanding, but as soon as the boss is out of sight he does the way he wants to.

 

[ceecee]

1. Indirect, passive anything that people use to avoid demands or requests, avoid confrontation or purposely sabotage something for someone else.

2. First let me say that there are few things that anger me more than passive-aggressive behavior. It is passive. It is silent. It is not clever. If that is your only weapon, a much more direct person will one day call your spineless ass out in an absolutely raw and naked way, where there will be no where to hide.
/rant

Examples - accepting and invite you don't really want then taking an eternity getting ready so the event is conveniently missed. The silent treatment that can go on for days. Coworkers who agree with what you say and simply do nothing. Catty bitchy women and men. What's wrong? Nothing.

It gives me a headache to think of more examples.

 

[ithurt]

Hi, I left this forum and came back specifically to see what was written about passive-aggressive behavior and found this thread.

I have been passive-aggressive in the past. Here is a little intro before I get into that.

I grew up in a family environment where my mother held more sway over everyone than my father, and she did not acknowledge feelings and did not encourage us to voice any emotion that could be slightly negative such as anger or sadness. We could only do it in minute doses and only if she understood it, and even then, we had to snap out of it fast. Furthermore she actually made us angry a lot by being harsh and hurtful and we would bury that anger inside and live with it. This is very long ago and I never think about it anymore, because our family dynamic has evolved, for the better since I reached mid-adulthood.

Fast-forward. Dealing with anger and arguments is not my forte. I don't recall having learned tools to deal with situations like that growing up and am still working on it as an adult. So today I was reflecting on something and the word passive-aggressive came up in some reading. I realized I didn't really understand what it means. Looked up descriptions. And realized that it is me. I had a flashback to how badly I used to feel in my interactions with my ISTJ mother and feel like I had a revelation of sorts. Being passive aggressive in my case is very tied to low skills during arguments and a learned assumption that arguments are win-lose and I lose.

It seems that part of fixing this pattern will be to work on unlearning this idea that all arguments are win-lose. During arguments, I usually do lose and this doesn't help much either. My INTP husband or ISTJ mother or INTJ father or INFJ sister in law (the INFJ and INTJ however will not be focused on "shredding") for example can almost all win the argument every time. They all will take what I say apart and have smarter points to make. I've tried to deal with this by staying cool and withdrawing before I say "dumb" points that they can shred. This actually has helped. But when things escalate slightly too fast, I tend to not hold my own.

The thing I usually then do, which is passive-aggressive, is not want to talk and if someone says I'm fine I say yes with a sulk. The latter is something I have done since I was a child. Not talking is something I used to do because my mother never wanted to hear my feelings so I'd go to my room and just be quiet and lost in my head. Actually, it doesn't matter to me whether it's because my mother was that way, or because that is how I simply was. It's how I coped then and it's really deep in me now to do this, so what matters to me is how much I have repeated this throughout my life and how to change that. I was not even aware at a fully conscious level that this is a bad thing to do until well into adulthood, and only today, do I realize just HOW MUCH this is part of my personality.
I would like to be less vulnerable and more orderly in how I handle interpersonal dynamics. I'd like to learn to persevere during arguments with getting to the resolution without winning or losing, especially not losing, and if it takes letting the other person "win" to keep peace, I'd like to think of that as winning and not losing.

Games games games. The older I get the more I cannot believe how complicated it is to be emotionally intelligent.

 

[great_bay]

1.) please share your definition of passive-aggressiveness.
Somebody who rants too much about towards groups of people in an acid way. Passive-aggressive behavior is usually directed towards groups of people as oppose to the person itself which makes it harder to confront the person. An example would be somebody who rants towards "insert groups of people here" and why they dislike them. A person wouldn't rant towards the individual but rather than the group of people the individual belonged to. Passive-aggressive behavior doesn't necessarily have to be directed towards an opposing individual. It can be directed towards institution or wrongs in society.

If somebody is passive-aggressive, I would warn their behavior is nor appropriated. I'll just give warnings. If nothing has changed, just reported the negative behavior to somebody in power. If passive-aggressive behavior happened for weeks on end, they can't get away with the behavior. They'll be removed from the institution.

 

[Yama]

"Timmy, why didn't you take out the trash?"

"I was busy."

"It only takes a couple minutes, and it sure would have been a big help... But I guess I'll do it... siiiigh... just like I pretty much do everything around this house... Like some kind of servant..."

 

[Poki]

I can easily, I can twist and manipulate things easily because, I don't know why. I use it as playful and joking though. Cracks my niece up because I can say it so serious and like I mean it, but she knows I don't care one bit. I can see alot of different angles good and bad angles that I can play with "asshole" and "bitch"

She will make a comment and very seriously I will look at her and say "what the hell, I spend all day (5 minutes) over this hot stove cooking dinner (heated up corn) and all I get from you is lip. I can't believe this, no one appreciates me" I can pull stuff like that outta my ass at the drop of a hat. I don't say what's in parenthesis, it's just to explain what I actually did. Then I will mutter under my breathe..."what the hell, no one likes me, everybody hates me, guess I'll just go eat worms" from the song but in a serious confused tone. My son asked where I come up with the stuff and I told him "it's why the voices in my head tell me"...lol

 

[Amargith]

I ll use passive aggressiveness as a tool in a few cases:

1) when i either have expressed my dislike or 'no' before or know from experience there is no point as it gets dismissed and demands are placed upon me along with expectations i did not agree to

With this, i have no qualms sabotaging, staging a sit-in and inspiring others to join me who are in the same boat to get my point across - and ill wrap it with a big pink bow, innocent eyes and a genuinely surprised 'whaat?' when they blow up at me.

Do NOT EVER take me for granted and tell me what to do.

Im perfectly capable of ruining everything you demanded from me and more to drive my point home if you cannot be arsed to treat me like a person and *ask* instead of demand and bully.

2) when i was younger, i often felt powerless (which you often are as a child) to affect my situation ( since youre easily dismissed and overruled as a child) and i tried being a good girl and not cause fuss. The resentment however leaked out in passive aggressive behaviour that i wasnt always aware of. When i became more aware and empowered, it informed me on how to do a) instead of battlibg with controlling people on their home turf.

Most of this has dissipated by now, safe from a few kneejerk reactions im still working on.


That said, i have trouble with people who are passive aggressive even after youv sincerely asked them if evereything is ok and have shown a willingness to listen, myself. I find they often have trouble wording what is bothering them or want to live up to a high non conflict standard, or are afraid of confrontation, making it hard to actually address the prob. I usually tell them to think on it and let me know if they figure it out or if they need help figuring it out, then work around them instead

 

[Cellmold]

Passuv eggre3sive iz da stratehgee ov da cow-hard.

Dats y I luv it.

ps: Ah pusted in da wrung thr3ed 2. I gotz distrak-ted by Omarguth.

 

[1487610420]

 

[PeaceBaby]

A little quick on the draw there, pardner.

Actually, I have noted a pattern and it's been quite consistent since I've parsed this. Fi - Te types and Fe - Ti types appear to have somewhat differing ideas on how passive-aggressiveness manifests and expresses externally.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I ll use passive aggressiveness as a tool in a few cases:

1) when i either have expressed my dislike or 'no' before or know from experience there is no point as it gets dismissed and demands are placed upon me along with expectations i did not agree to

With this, i have no qualms sabotaging, staging a sit-in and inspiring others to join me who are in the same boat to get my point across - and ill wrap it with a big pink bow, innocent eyes and a genuinely surprised 'whaat?' when they blow up at me.

Do NOT EVER take me for granted and tell me what to do.

Im perfectly capable of ruining everything you demanded from me and more to drive my point home if you cannot be arsed to treat me like a person and *ask* instead of demand and bully.

So, just to get this straight: if you think someone is demanding of you without agreement, instead of just ignoring unreasonable expectations, you get revenge and actively destroy their intent?

That is pretty wicked, lol....

2) when i was younger, i often felt powerless (which you often are as a child) to affect my situation ( since youre easily dismissed and overruled as a child) and i tried being a good girl and not cause fuss. The resentment however leaked out in passive aggressive behaviour that i wasnt always aware of. When i became more aware and empowered, it informed me on how to do a) instead of battlibg with controlling people on their home turf.

Most of this has dissipated by now, safe from a few kneejerk reactions im still working on.


That said, i have trouble with people who are passive aggressive even after youv sincerely asked them if evereything is ok and have shown a willingness to listen, myself. I find they often have trouble wording what is bothering them or want to live up to a high non conflict standard, or are afraid of confrontation, making it hard to actually address the prob. I usually tell them to think on it and let me know if they figure it out or if they need help figuring it out, then work around them instead

So, you can be super passive aggressive to the extent of actually sabotaging other's intent, but others not talking things out and refusing to be open annoys you?

I am not trying to judge you, but trying to understand what appears to me as hypocrisy. If my summary of what you stated is incorrect, I would love a clarification.....