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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by applebite View Post
    No, I don't have a problem with science at all (opposite of a problem, really). Perhaps my post isn't the easiest to interpret...
    Hmm okay. I did ask because it wasn't clear to me

    Yes, individual will and intellect greatly override the sensations provided by environment. On that front, Descartes was partially correct - "I think, therefore I am." Maybe closer to, "I think, therefore it is."
    Interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    All I know is that Ne+Ti is famous for doing this, and I exhibit this stereotype myself.
    But I guess in your case it was that you managed to make up the right answers..? I just went through the material very fast, processing and understanding it all in a limited amount of time

    It's more like, I just can't be bothered. The details evade me. Like I'm learning a foreign language right now, and for the life of me I can't be bothered to memorize vocab since it seems like "boring details". So, I learn the overall structure of the language, and then am stuck asking for translations of words many times over. It's sad.
    Heh learning the vocabulary of a new language is tricky, I don't see it as an S/N issue really. I believe in a natural context based learning of the vocab. No need to do rote memorization that way. Though my most efficient method does involve a bit of rote memorizing but it's not as bad as it sounds, it's kept at a minimum.

    Btw I'm just like you there, I learn the structure first (grammar stuff etc). I can't put together a sentence's meaning or create sentences effortlessly if I don't have the structure learned yet. I'm totally extreme with this, I know many people don't give a rat's ass about structure, they just pick up a few words from communication then guess meaning of sentences and just try to put together some makeshift sentences. I do none of that...

    Pe-dom my friend. I'm the stereotype of the xNxP slob, I dunno if there's a Sensing equivalent.
    I don't see a lot of difference here between Ne and Se tbh :P

    The problem is "developing the habit". It's like I need my mom standing over me, telling me what to do. I just don't have that sort of awareness of my environment that would even draw it to mind while trying to form a habit.
    I see. Interesting. I can be immersed in thoughts or something but I still have this instinct active that makes me pay attention when I need to. That has to be S/N difference? I have the attention in my case because I actually care enough about the stuff in reality. I guess you care more about your ideas or whatever and it's less frustrating to you if you e.g. lose a bag?

  2. #92
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    But I guess in your case it was that you managed to make up the right answers..? I just went through the material very fast, processing and understanding it all in a limited amount of time
    Yeah, in my case it was all about inventing stuff and covering up the fact that I didn't actually know what I was talking about.

    Heh learning the vocabulary of a new language is tricky, I don't see it as an S/N issue really. I believe in a natural context based learning of the vocab. No need to do rote memorization that way. Though my most efficient method does involve a bit of rote memorizing but it's not as bad as it sounds, it's kept at a minimum.
    I see it as a detail thing in my case, though memorization is a pain for anyone regardless of type.

    Btw I'm just like you there, I learn the structure first (grammar stuff etc). I can't put together a sentence's meaning or create sentences effortlessly if I don't have the structure learned yet. I'm totally extreme with this, I know many people don't give a rat's ass about structure, they just pick up a few words from communication then guess meaning of sentences and just try to put together some makeshift sentences. I do none of that...
    Me too. Boy, I can't be one of those parrots that throws out gibberish. I have to understand what it is I'm saying, or else I can't articulate; my brain just starts pulling it apart and trying to find the pattern regardless of whether anyone tells it to me. This ability (I call it ability, though it isn't always seen that way) is apparently exceptionally rare. My teacher got pissed at me at the beginning because I would sit silently trying to put my thoughts into a logical grammar structure rather than just say gibberish. He'd be like "JUST SAY SOMETHING". I am incapable of just saying "words". But it's benefited me as I've advanced because I am intelligible and haven't fossilized a bunch of non-grammatical idiosyncracies, unlike many others who didn't take the time to work out the structure as they went.

    I don't see a lot of difference here between Ne and Se tbh :P
    It may be.

    I see. Interesting. I can be immersed in thoughts or something but I still have this instinct active that makes me pay attention when I need to. That has to be S/N difference? I have the attention in my case because I actually care enough about the stuff in reality. I guess you care more about your ideas or whatever and it's less frustrating to you if you e.g. lose a bag?
    It is an S/N difference. I am so stupid I walk into stuff. Then have no idea how my legs have all these random bruises. It's no less frustrating me to lose things--I habitually trash my surroundings further in a rage wondering where all my crap went. I don't even care about my ideas more than my stuff, I don't take note of it when I set it down I guess. I assume this is an N thing.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I see it as a detail thing in my case
    Yet you were able to learn the vocabulary of your native language


    Me too. Boy, I can't be one of those parrots that throws out gibberish. I have to understand what it is I'm saying, or else I can't articulate; my brain just starts pulling it apart and trying to find the pattern regardless of whether anyone tells it to me. This ability (I call it ability, though it isn't always seen that way) is apparently exceptionally rare. My teacher got pissed at me at the beginning because I would sit silently trying to put my thoughts into a logical grammar structure rather than just say gibberish. He'd be like "JUST SAY SOMETHING". I am incapable of just saying "words". But it's benefited me as I've advanced because I am intelligible and haven't fossilized a bunch of non-grammatical idiosyncracies, unlike many others who didn't take the time to work out the structure as they went.
    Hmm did you see an explicit claim that this ability is exceptionally rare? I'm not debating your claim, I actually find it interesting and would like to know more about what it's based on.

    I may be an even more extreme case because I could not even understand a lot of sentences without first getting the structure of the entire language that I was learning. Even when I knew all words in one sentence, I sometimes could not put it together. Well, more like I would not spend effort on it, I simply saw it the sentence as too ambiguous in those cases. That sort of thing just totally turns me off, it would have needed too much effort to cognitively shift my focus in a way I usually don't do. Getting to see the structure of such sentences instantly made it non-ambiguous and then I could deal with it easily. Actually, just by learning the grammar stuff, my reading skills went up by like several hundred percents... I could even figure out the meaning of some unfamiliar words based on the structure of sentences. I almost tangibly saw these structures when reading sentences. I wonder if you did that as well? Seeing them like that? Over time it faded btw, it's all subconscious now; access to the language is very automatic and thus not conscious.


    It is an S/N difference. I am so stupid I walk into stuff. Then have no idea how my legs have all these random bruises. It's no less frustrating me to lose things--I habitually trash my surroundings further in a rage wondering where all my crap went. I don't even care about my ideas more than my stuff, I don't take note of it when I set it down I guess. I assume this is an N thing.
    Hmmm yeah the latter I guess is because you're off to idea-land :P

    Btw I will admit to being somewhat resistant to conditioning wrt some things myself, such as getting to bed early enough if I know I have to get up early. I know I will be terribly sleepy in the morning if I don't go to bed in time. That is pretty frustrating to me. Yet I can't take this definite outcome in the near future seriously enough, it doesn't make me go to bed in time, I'm just not getting conditioned by the bad consequences in this case :P

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Yeah they're overrated, and S types underrated. Descriptions are hugely tilted to favor some types over others, and intutivies are by and large made to seem a lot more special, talented, and intelligent than their S counter parts. I'd say INFJ's (and to a lesser extent ENFJ's) are the worst in this regard.

    It's unfair and annoying.
    Agree. It creates often unrealistic expectations for people of these types. If they don't excel or shine as xNxx, they're probably going to get pretty down on themselves. Type descriptions be damned.

  5. #95
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    What we call sensing is the more common configuration for the human brain to be in. Typically sensing rejects or is weary of unfounded abstract information. Therefore, one will find that intuition is on the whole, underrated.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Yet you were able to learn the vocabulary of your native language
    Amazing, right? I didn't even have to memorize vocab lists.

    Hmm did you see an explicit claim that this ability is exceptionally rare? I'm not debating your claim, I actually find it interesting and would like to know more about what it's based on.
    No, I said that more out of exaggeration. I will say, though, that MANY people seem to find it annoying that I'm not capable of just throwing random words out. This leads me to think that most people probably DON'T need to structure it.

    I may be an even more extreme case because I could not even understand a lot of sentences without first getting the structure of the entire language that I was learning. Even when I knew all words in one sentence, I sometimes could not put it together. Well, more like I would not spend effort on it, I simply saw it the sentence as too ambiguous in those cases. That sort of thing just totally turns me off, it would have needed too much effort to cognitively shift my focus in a way I usually don't do. Getting to see the structure of such sentences instantly made it non-ambiguous and then I could deal with it easily. Actually, just by learning the grammar stuff, my reading skills went up by like several hundred percents... I could even figure out the meaning of some unfamiliar words based on the structure of sentences. I almost tangibly saw these structures when reading sentences. I wonder if you did that as well? Seeing them like that? Over time it faded btw, it's all subconscious now; access to the language is very automatic and thus not conscious.
    I don't quite see the structures, but I can definitely relate to not understanding a jumble of words put together without dissecting the grammar. It's an acquired skill in my case.

    Hmmm yeah the latter I guess is because you're off to idea-land :P

    Btw I will admit to being somewhat resistant to conditioning wrt some things myself, such as getting to bed early enough if I know I have to get up early. I know I will be terribly sleepy in the morning if I don't go to bed in time. That is pretty frustrating to me. Yet I can't take this definite outcome in the near future seriously enough, it doesn't make me go to bed in time, I'm just not getting conditioned by the bad consequences in this case :P
    I thought that was a sx-first thing.

  7. #97
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    There, there, don't be too hard on yourselves, amigos.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #98
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    I love being an intuitive becUse for me,its effortless thinking. Sure it comes to its fair share of wrong conclusions but at least I didnt bust a neuron getting there. I'm fundamentally lazy and thinking seauentially hurts my brain and uses energy. I just like letting shit float in and spit our some kind of outcome at a random hour. And this lack of needing to notice stuff just frees up my time for doing something fun like making stuff.

    I dont think intuition is overrated at all. In the main I like being painfully unaware of real life. On the few occassions I have been aware of RL it sucked.

  9. #99
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    HITLER WAS AN INTUITIVE.

    -------------------

    That aside, I kind of agree. The first time I took the Myers-Briggs so many years ago, I tested as a Sensor because Intuitive questions seemed very la-dee-da, spacey, and impractical. Yuck, I'm not like THAT.

    Problem is, I actually am like that. And I'd agree, I'm kinda worthless. Like,

    - I chronically forget valuable items such as my umbrella, bag, and/or keys, multiple times every day.
    - I can't memorize worth shit.
    - I walk into random furniture and get all these random bruises without even knowing how it happened.
    - I forget I'm hungry, feverish, whatever.
    - I walk around so lost in fantasy that I'm oblivious to myself and others.
    - I habitually over-estimate my odds ("I can eat, shower, get everything ready and make it to the airport in just one hour!").
    - I habitually pop out with nonsense that no one else understands, and I spent the better part of my childhood being laughed at and rejected for being "different".
    - I become inflexibly sure things happened that didn't actually happen and get myself in trouble for acting on this.
    - I can't keep my room clean, and I spend most of my time being scattered and lazy.
    - I AM SO UNPRODUCTIVE that it burns.
    - I forget where I put my money and am at a loss on where that $500 went at the end of the month. I forget I even have bills to pay at times.

    Don't even get me started on the hypochondria.

    So what if I ace all my exams without putting in any effort? It's like I can't handle reality, which is just a little bit MORE important than exams. I don't think Sensors have these problems. I'm sure they have their own problems, but I test as a Sensor, and dammit, I think it's a great way to be. I get tired of the "Sensors are dumb" garbage, myself.

    I mean I like being Ne-dom (despite everything), but I fail to see why Intuitives are made out to be "smarter". I'm one of those academically "smart" people who's actually dumb.
    i relate to this so much. i love being an Ne dom too, but it's not without its drawbacks
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  10. #100
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    Pretty much.
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    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

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