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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nobody View Post
    Well I'm imaginative, idealistic and emotionally expressive. But I'm also in search of truth most of the time.
    Not truth that suits my emotional dispositions or the truth conceived by logic. but the truth that transcends both. You could say I look for meaning... Specially for patterns. I love interconnected patterns of behavior.
    and most of the time I can see it. Really deep impersonal meaning... I'm in love with analytic psychology, fantasy/sci-fi movies and deep music. I also live an undisciplined life with usually no schedule or plans...
    The search for meaning is generally an NF thing, if you're talking about meaning/purpose in life. Although, if by "deep impersonal meaning" you mean searching for patterns (which you did mention) and the underlying principles that explain how things work, NTs certainly focus a lot of their attention on that. 4w5 is more likely for an INFP than an INTJ, though, and I'd say 4w5 Sx/So is an especially unlikely INTJ type. Some more reading material that might help you:
    NF - Catalyst/Idealists
    NT - Theorist/Rationals

  2. #12
    Junior Member Mr Nobody's Avatar
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    "Listen! If INTJs and INTPs are so freaking different, why is there this endless parade of INTJforum posters who've read up on the MBTI (including the functions), read INTJ and INTP profiles, and ended up concluding (1) that they relate better to INTJ and INTP descriptions than any other types, and (2) that they relate pretty much equally well to INTJ and INTP?"
    That makes sense. I also think Jung's original model of eight types based on the dominant function was a much more feasible system of personality analysis. It was after all the basis of Myers-Briggs whole system.
    We have gone sick.

    By following a path of untrammeled rationalism,
    Male dominance,
    Attention to the visible surface of things,
    Practicality,
    Bottom line-ism.
    We have gone very very sick.

    INTJ 4w5 5w4 9w1 Sx/So Neutral Good Johari Nohari
    Likes Himeko009 liked this post

  3. #13
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Without reading the whole discourse, something to note is Ni doms have strong Ne, but prefer Ni (as with all other functions--Ti and Te, Fi and Fe, Si and Se--the pairs develop together). Also, from my experience cognitive functions tests may be better indicators of valuation than utilization. Studying each function extensively and closely examining yourself through those lenses should eventually lead to one of the sixteen types.

    I've noticed most MBTI discussions here revolve around interpreting usually-ambiguous symptoms of cognitive processes. There are plenty of explanations for our idiosyncrasies that muddy this method of typing, so I would suggest asking a few of the veterans for the reading materials they found most helpful and letting that information digest for a while. Video chatting with someone well-versed in the system could bypass the learning process, if that appeals to you and you find someone willing to help.

  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nobody View Post
    Which is more likely? being an INTJ with a highly developed Ne and least developed Se. being an INTP with Ti being my seventh function or INFP with a really developed Ni?
    I'm not sure this is a fair question, or even a useful one. I agree with those who recommend focusing on the dichotomies rather than the functions. I also score much higher on Ne and Ti than one would think an INTJ would, though with Fi>>Fe and Se>>Si, so not inconsistent with INTJ, but not as clear to see as on dichotomy-based surveys. What impression do you get when you read type descriptions?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #15
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nobody View Post
    Which is more likely? being an INTJ with a highly developed Ne and least developed Se. being an INTP with Ti being my seventh function or INFP with a really developed Ni?
    Interesting.

    The most likely would be the INTJ with highly developed Ne, due to the relative strength of intuition in the type, and then INFP for favored engagement with the demonstrative/senex function of Ni that impacts the Fi worldview in a conscious-unconscious mechanism (Fi-Ni). Fi provides the moral framework, Ni provides the unconscious commentary on the framework as well as a differing perspective from the usual Ne.

    INTP with Ti second to last though seems rather implausible, though probable on some, though microscopic, scale. (Assuming that the 1-8 scale is level of strength on say, a keys2cognition report)

    For my own amusement, does formal logic bore you in such a way that it could almost be described as a personal weakness due to a lack of care or experience in formal logic?

    I too, like @Coriolis, score relatively high on Ne and especially Ti, though I do not value them.

  6. #16
    Junior Member Mr Nobody's Avatar
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    For my own amusement, does formal logic bore you in such a way that it could almost be described as a personal weakness due to a lack of care or experience in formal logic?
    Logic for me is powerful inspiring tool if it is used by the right intention and an unbiased frame of mind. However like any other tool it can be misused for "shadow" purposes like winning an argument just for the sake of ego.
    We have gone sick.

    By following a path of untrammeled rationalism,
    Male dominance,
    Attention to the visible surface of things,
    Practicality,
    Bottom line-ism.
    We have gone very very sick.

    INTJ 4w5 5w4 9w1 Sx/So Neutral Good Johari Nohari

  7. #17
    Junior Member Himeko009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nobody View Post
    Ok so I'm an INFP new to mbti. based on Jungian Cognitive Function Test my functions are as followed :
    Ni Ne Te Fi Fe Si Ti Se. which resemble an INTJ with developed Ne. And I can't possibly be T or J... because I just don't match the descriptions. I'm also 4w5 5w4 1w2 (The Researcher) on the enneagram (not sure about the instinctual variant). Can someone please shed some light on this self-conflicting soul ?
    I'm very imaginative and idealistic (I think all intuitive are), but I'm very rational, also. I'm a 5w4 1w9 4w5 (The Researcher, also) sp/sx.
    INTP (LII - Ne, Harmonizing subtype) ~ 5w4 - 9w1 - 4w5 (sp/sx/so)

    "My thought is me: that is why I cannot stop thinking. I exist because I think I cannot keep from thinking" ~ Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Dario Nardi's one of the leading cognitive functions guys (as you probably know), and his keys2cognition test (which you may well have taken) is arguably the most-linked-to cognitive functions test but, as further discussed in the next spoiler, INTJs typically get high Ni scores and high Ne scores (with Ni not substantially favored over Ne), and high Te scores and high Ti scores (with Te not substantially favored over Ti), when they take Nardi's test — and INFJs often get Fi scores that are as high or higher than their Fe scores.


    As I understand it, there isn't a single function-based test on or off the internet on which INTJs reliably get high Ni and Te scores and low Ti and Ne scores and INTPs reliably get high Ti and Ne scores and low Ni and Te scores — never mind scoring the third and fourth functions in a way that matches the model. I'm theoretically an "Ni-dom," but Te and Ti were my two highest scores on Nardi's test.

    And what functions model should a good test be matching, anyway? Myers acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars believed (rightly, IMHO) that Jung's model for a Ti-dom with an N auxiliary was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe. Myers' model was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe — although, as explained in my last linked post (below), Myers, despite some lip service to the contrary, essentially (and to her credit) abandoned the functions for the dichotomies. Harold Grant's model — followed by Berens and Nardi and most of the other modern functions theorists — was Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

    That last model is the one most often subscribed to by internet forumites, which is why you'll often read posts that say that INTJs and INTPs (or INFJs and INFPs) may share three letters but, pfffft, they've got almost nothing in common because, when you go from J to P, it flips all your functions! Buuut... I'm here to tell you that "Am I INTJ or INTP?" is by far the most common torn-between-types dilemma encountered in type-me threads at INTJforum. And I often point that out to the function-flipping aficonados, and I say to them, "Listen! If INTJs and INTPs are so freaking different, why is there this endless parade of INTJforum posters who've read up on the MBTI (including the functions), read INTJ and INTP profiles, and ended up concluding (1) that they relate better to INTJ and INTP descriptions than any other types, and (2) that they relate pretty much equally well to INTJ and INTP?"

    And nobody ever has a good answer. And sometimes I ask them, "Hey, if INTJs and INTPs have no shared functions and their functions are as different as you say, how about doing what Nardi somehow failed to do and give me some Ni, Ne, Ti and Te descriptions that I can offer those poor type-me-please INTx's as a solution to their confusion. If they relate to your Ni and Te descriptions and don't relate to your Ti and Ne descriptions, we'll know they're INTJs, and if it's the other way around, we'll know they're INTPs."

    And guess what? Not one cognitive functions aficionado has even tried to rise to my challenge, although sometimes they stroke their chins and say something like, well, you know, the cognitive functions are incredibly deep and subtle and it's unrealistic to expect somebody to be able to describe them using something as crude as words.

    About the above: I am very much on your same frequency. What you wrote is also very to the point for me. You are trying to tackle an important issue. And I agree that its about time that someone should find out.

    Most people do indeed accept that there is a E-I, S-N, T-F spectrum in each MBTI dichotomy.

    The J-P switch is a more difficult one indeed, and you have rightly pointed out so. Because if it's supposed to flip the functions all around, then how can it be a spectrum (independent of E-I)?
    And why indeed are people so confused about it (like between INTP/INTJ)? Does that increase the probability that there would actually be a J-P spectrum (independent of E-I)? That the good question!

    I don't know the answer, to that. But I can imagine & explore ways in which it could be an independant spectrum...
    Would you consider this a possibility?:
    What if there is a spectrum between Ni and Ne? Lets say there is a spectrum and we define a virtual "NiNe"-function, being a function in the middle of that spectrum. People with this virtual "NiNe"-function would be hard to type, as they would be on the borderline, falling in both boxes at each side. The more Ne-like the NiNe-type would be, the higher the P. The more Ni-like the NiNe-type would be, the higher the J.
    In such a model the J-P spectrum might actually be possible, and thus make sense.

    Still the problem of what happens to the E-I at the same time is still there...

    There would then also be a virtual "TiTe" middle function in this spectrum model. But would Ne necessarily dictate Ti, and Ni necessarily dictate Te inclination? (as MBTI originally/officially dictates)
    if we want to keep J-P as a spectrum, independently from the E-I spectrum then we need to define (in this new model) that the choice of the Te/Ti-direction would be independent from the Ne/Ni direction. Thus indeed it requires the possibility of NiNe going to Ni, while TiTe also going to Ti... Thus a NiTi type is possible here, but not allowed by normal MBTI.

    So good question, does the occurrence of the INTJ/INTP confusion show that NiTi types exist? Is this the source of the confusion, or something else?

    I guess this is the problem you are showing us, am I right?

  9. #19
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    I guess this is the problem you are showing us, am I right?
    No. If you read the long INTJforum post I link to at the end of post 10, you'll see that I'm not really a believer in the "cognitive functions." I think James Reynierse (as discussed in the linked post) was right to characterize them as a "category mistake."

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