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  1. #21
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    does anyone who identifies with this have any examples for the items on the list?
    (i am particularly interested in examples of items 2, 3 & 4, but any will be welcomed)

  2. #22
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meowington View Post
    @fia While I think you make some valid points, I must say barely anything in that doormat list applies to me. I still feel blame for other peoples' moods too often, but that's about it. I'd say I'm very sensitive to being pushed around and don't let that happen easily.
    Always good to hear! Perhaps I should clarify also that my point is mostly that a Fe-aux is vulnerable to becoming a doormat when emotionally unhealthy patterns have developed because of circumstance. It could also make sense that a healthy Fe-aux could learn to set the right boundaries. It sounds like you have a healthy, well developed Fe. Interestingly enough, some of the best boundary makers are Fe-doms. When a person has command of their interactions in the concrete world amongst people, then boundaries is at the core of that skill. What I describe is likely a bigger problem for the highly individualized introvert who still has a strong drive to connect?

    I think that extroversion helps people have a command of interacting socially, Ti, Te, and Fi helps people not be as beholden to others subjectively. You can also look at this through the process of elimination, although, it would be interesting to see if it is an equivalent issue for ISFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    does anyone who identifies with this have any examples for the items on the list?
    (i am particularly interested in examples of items 2, 3 & 4, but any will be welcomed)
    My psychological problem is that I self harm whenever rejected. It started as a teenager when I felt I must be half-evil because my father was cruel. Now whenever I'm rejected by someone important to me, my natural response is to assume they are in the right and I also reject me. I mirror their mindset and have a strong drive to punish myself that I have to develop a lot of mental discipline to not give into. When in high school and most of my life until now I had no close friends, would tend to see other people as innocent, and anytime I saw something I was likely to judge, I would internalize it and hate myself. Feeling anger towards others is something I've had to deliberately practice and learn because it doesn't come naturally to me. I only have a natural inclination to feel anger towards myself.

    Edit: It's because I don't have a normal sense of self-ego because of a combination of personality and experience. My view of the world rapidly switches between so many vantage points that my own perspective is just a subset of the whole. It becomes overwhelming and so to just internalize and accept the blame is almost a relief because it's easier. I have a deep fear of expressing anger or blaming others because I just know that I'll find out the person is dying of cancer or was hurt. I know there is a reason. There is always a reason, and it's just a matter of time and empathy to discover it. Other people look fragile to me, and it feels like I can typically handle more than them, so it is safer to just express the anger towards myself. This is also because my core family growing up felt more fragile to me, and I felt responsible. Even though I'm the youngest, I've always felt naturally responsible.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #23
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My psychological problem is that I self harm whenever rejected. It started as a teenager when I felt I must be half-evil because my father was cruel.
    From what you described it does sound like this has marked you, in the way we all have our scars, only one can be a lot more severe than the other (I can't complain compared to most people). This reminds me of my best friend, sister in spirit & girl next door in my youth. She had a cruel dad too and she was afraid to have children cause she figured she'd be cruel too. There was nothing I could say to get that out of her head. But eventually she did get 2 children and she is in no way like her dad. Also, do yourself a favor ok : A lot less is genetically defined than we think (let alone good and evil). Most inner dynamics develop and change due to life circumstances (obviously a lot in the early years, but not exclusively).

    Dealing with anger and particulary expressing it / venting is another thing all together. Let me know if you ever master that cause I could use a few pointers myself
    Contrary to you I don't really revert anger to myself. I just bottle it up inside and then eventually lash out to someone out of context My boss knows me pretty well by now and he just comes up to me holding his fingers together and says "ZEN ZEN ZEN ..." And it works

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My psychological problem is that I self harm whenever rejected. It started as a teenager when I felt I must be half-evil because my father was cruel. Now whenever I'm rejected by someone important to me, my natural response is to assume they are in the right and I also reject me. I mirror their mindset and have a strong drive to punish myself that I have to develop a lot of mental discipline to not give into. When in high school and most of my life until now I had no close friends, would tend to see other people as innocent, and anytime I saw something I was likely to judge, I would internalize it and hate myself. Feeling anger towards others is something I've had to deliberately practice and learn because it doesn't come naturally to me. I only have a natural inclination to feel anger towards myself.

    Edit: It's because I don't have a normal sense of self-ego because of a combination of personality and experience. My view of the world rapidly switches between so many vantage points that my own perspective is just a subset of the whole. It becomes overwhelming and so to just internalize and accept the blame is almost a relief because it's easier. I have a deep fear of expressing anger or blaming others because I just know that I'll find out the person is dying of cancer or was hurt. I know there is a reason. There is always a reason, and it's just a matter of time and empathy to discover it. Other people look fragile to me, and it feels like I can typically handle more than them, so it is safer to just express the anger towards myself. This is also because my core family growing up felt more fragile to me, and I felt responsible. Even though I'm the youngest, I've always felt naturally responsible.
    This feels very enneagram type 9 to me fia. (So too does the doormat list.) How confident are you that you are a 4?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #25
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This feels very enneagram type 9 to me fia. (So too does the doormat list.) How confident are you that you are a 4?
    I don't know Enneagram that well. I do turn everything into art, but maybe it's possible I'm a 9 with 4 and 5 sprinkles added in?

    Edit:
    Three of the men I know who are IFJs have been completely trampled in relationships. My brother has tested as INFJ, I'm becoming friends with an INFJ guy who has had relationships where he was completely in the role of nurturer and accommodator, and a former BIL is an ISFJ who works endlessly to accommodate millions of detailed needs and demands of his wife. I've seen all three men lose their own self and goals to accommodate the women they are involved with, and so that is also part of the reason this thread occurred to me. I tend to fight hard to defend IFJs because I do think they can be easily bullied. Fi-doms also have social vulnerabilities which might fall under a similar issue as this one, but I think they are generally more detached, so they don't fall into that state of desperately seeking approval from a manipulative partner like a Fe-aux, but I'm not entirely certain about it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #26
    violaine
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    I have developed good boundaries. It took a while, and will prob always be something I have to consciously work on. But I am sooo much happier and my relationships are healthy as a result.

    Edit: I have never felt like I was being walked on. I have always felt quite strong, especially emotionally, and so have been in the habit of taking other people's probs on and "fixing" things while neglecting my own needs. I used to do it to an unhealthy degree whereby there was no room left for me. I wasn't even aware that I was attracting fixer-uppers. There is a place for all of that work, but I believe that place is therapy, not primarily in one's relationship facilitated by one's partner. Nope. I always learn a lot from my romantic relationships and I just remember realizing that I was burned out and worried that I was only loved for what I could "do" for a person, so I just stopped unconsciously "doing". I'm a bit more aware of when I feel like giving someone everything and I stop myself. Though, being an introvert, I only really have to manage it in a few relationships. So much happier now.
    Last edited by violaine; 05-16-2014 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Clarification

  7. #27
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My impression is that Fe-aux folks can have specific types of difficulty in relating socially because the Fe creates a strong need for connection, but the dominant introverted, perception function causes them to be more individualized and withdrawn. This can create an internal dichotomy, but also a less efficient way to establish connections than their extroverted Fe-dom counterparts. The Ni and Si doms can also detach either into nostalgia and the personal, experiential world of Si, or into the theoretical, imaginative, abstracted sense of Ni reality.
    As an Si-dom, this sounds very much like me indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Please disagree if this doesn't resonate, but I think that Fe-aux are at high risk of staying in unhealthy relationships and losing a sense of self in order to maintain peaceful connections. While it's true that I'm going through a personal rough patch right now, I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that when I read this list of socialization traits on a "recovering doormat" site, I realize that I am struggling with every single thing on this list.
    Obviously I can't speak for other ISFJs...but YES! I'm just now entering what I'm hoping will be a "normal" relationship after a string of bad ones and I realized today that I'm not entirely sure HOW a "normal" relationship is supposed to proceed. It's exhilarating...but anxiety-inducing at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Part of the reason I get angry and push back when people berate INFJs and ISFJs is because I understand their tendency to internalize all of that sort of negativity. Then when I push back people just increase their criticisms rather than listening to context, rather than trying to understand that when you tell a Fe-aux something negative, it is like speaking those same words through a megaphone for most any other type. The words hold a different meaning and so become less accurate. Anyway, please disagree as needed.
    That's...actually been my experience as well. If I'm a doormat and try and get along with everyone, I lose everyone's respect and they don't like me anymore. If I stand up for myself, I'm an asshole and they STILL don't like me. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a no win situation..

    As for the List, I am guilty of all except 9. Those cases can feel isolating and very lonely when I'm not happy at the time.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #28
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    As an Si-dom, this sounds very much like me indeed.



    Obviously I can't speak for other ISFJs...but YES! I'm just now entering what I'm hoping will be a "normal" relationship after a string of bad ones and I realized today that I'm not entirely sure HOW a "normal" relationship is supposed to proceed. It's exhilarating...but anxiety-inducing at the same time.



    That's...actually been my experience as well. If I'm a doormat and try and get along with everyone, I lose everyone's respect and they don't like me anymore. If I stand up for myself, I'm an asshole and they STILL don't like me. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a no win situation..

    As for the List, I am guilty of all except 9. Those cases can feel isolating and very lonely when I'm not happy at the time.

    I am so happy to hear that you are in a better situation. I sometimes feel like starting the slogan "doormats of the world unite!" The easiest and best relationships are the ones with two givers.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #29
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post

    I am so happy to hear that you are in a better situation. I sometimes feel like starting the slogan "doormats of the world unite!" The easiest and best relationships are the ones with two givers.
    Thanks! Her and I are having lunch and will probably be spending the evening together just hanging out and such. I have high hopes for this relationship
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #30
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Soo...my new girlfriend just took an MBTI test (as I told her about it and how this was a pet interest in it). I had typed her as an ISFP. She got...INFJ.

    Two thoughts:

    1) I can't type people for squat
    2) Two doormat-like personalities dating each other...OH LAWDS THE CUDDLEZ! We'll tripping over each other to out-compromise the other

    (All in good humor, I promise)
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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