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  1. #11
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    When you set healthy boundaries, you start attracting other people who set healthy boundaries also--and who will respect your boundaries because they want their boundaries respected in turn. Otherwise, you'll attract those people who would treat you like a doormat and not respect your boundaries.

    ETA: Also, if you tried to set healthy boundaries as a child and those were violated or ignored, then it's going to be difficult to know how to set those healthy boundaries and NOT have them violated or ignored. But it is possible.

    ETA2: And, maybe, as a child, SiFe sees those violations of boundaries as part of their social duty, along with other social data they take in (I'm expected by society to put up with these sorts of violations from certain people in authority); while NiFe sees those violations of boundaries as a statement about their personal worth (I'm being treated this way because I'm worthless, so I must prove my worth so people will treat me better).
    Last edited by Eilonwy; 05-14-2014 at 01:11 PM. Reason: replaced "good" with "healthy"
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #12
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I do think that IxFJs are particularly prone to sunk investment fallacy where connections to others are concerned. I don’t actually have any close ISFJ friends, but I have seen a very distinct inclination in the INFJs I’ve known to remain loyal/feel an investment for too long to connections that had only become detrimental (this is generally only where someone had become truly important). Since I suspect it’s because of introverted perception (the tendency to prioritize experiential data), I imagine it would be an ISFJ thing as well. For IxFJs- more than anyone else- when we interact with someone, our past experience of them is more present for us than our immediate experience of them. In other words- we interact with a sort of conglomeration of everything that person has ever been to us, not simply the immediate collection of opinions and behaviors in front of us. If we have amassed very positive past experiences of someone, we can tend to stay far too long in a situation that works heavily against us. [But then, once enough negative experience builds up to tip the scales in the other direction- we pretty much only realize it was building up once it’s too late and the scales are already tipped, and the decision to cut the cord is pretty much non-negotiable. The only way to undo that is to add more positive experience to the plate- but since (ime) most people tend to want to 'fix' it with more of the negative approach that caused the scales to turn in the first place, it generally doesn't change.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #13
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    for me, i relate to it through e4 and e2 vacillation. getting caught in my own felt body image or the felt body image of the other.

    i think the only thing that i can honestly speak for is that sometimes it's difficult for me to see myself clearly without others reflecting me, and to see what is happening for me, and to see my needs clearly and how they have been interpreted through my emotional responses that happen of their own accord but that then i have to figure out how to work with.

    i'm not a doormat. but i do have a lot of difficulty regarding trust, which starts with self-trust and is maintained through a continued faith in a positive future, not that the exact outcome you want will happen but that the positive will be there if you're willing to stay open to really feeling out the whole of the situation and working towards what would be best to commit to in it, despite all the other feelings you are having, all of which you must complete in terms of the process of hearing so that you can then let them go.

    without this, it's really hard to commit to your own version of reality, and without doing this, it's really difficult to hold open the recognition of what it's like to commit to a version of reality, that everyone has one if they want to truly take responsibility for themselves that is authentic to themselves and their capacity to be a self-sufficient adult. and it's hard to keep open the space needed to respect those other realities as real for those people, and to come from a place that allows those to relate rather than being taken over by each other.

    eta: having a clear sense of the stories that are happening all around you, the stories of moods, relationships, interactions, sequences of events, etc, this Ti sense, is so needed to help us stay on track and maintain the accountability needed to really know the factors in deciding and owning our decisions.

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I realize that these traits are enormous taboos in society, and that to be a "doormat" is just about the worst admission a person can make. One thing that I want to bring out is that these same weaknesses are accompanied by strengths which include loyalty and empathy.

    I don't know if there are IFJs who function at the opposite end of the doormat spectrum and are very controlling or if that is something more akin to extroversion or ITJs. I think there are a number of female ITJs who are mistyped as IFJs.

    Another thought I had: Even though I value not being passive aggressive, I would have to add that the emotional/social framework presented here would suggest that the IFJ would be passive aggressive, and I have been at times, although not consciously.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    [...]
    Another thought I had: Even though I value not being passive aggressive, I would have to add that the emotional/social framework presented here would suggest that the IFJ would be passive aggressive, and I have been at times, although not consciously.
    This is certainly true for me. When agitated enough it finally comes out in some form of furious Fi senex role verbal moral assault. Sometimes I can get so mad that my whole body shakes (inferior Se). But it would take A LOT before that happens. And if someone punched me in the face, there would most likely be very active aggression as a response :-)

  6. #16
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    I agree that this is an IFJ thing, and I'd say it's an example of a shared characteristic that's better accommodated by a dichotomy-centric perspective than a functions-centric perspective. Characterizing it as an "Fe" thing doesn't really make sense since it's not an EFJ thing, or at least not to nearly the same degree as it is an IFJ thing.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    I agree that this is an IFJ thing, and I'd say it's an example of a shared characteristic that's better accommodated by a dichotomy-centric perspective than a functions-centric perspective. Characterizing it as an "Fe" thing doesn't really make sense since it's not an EFJ thing, or at least not to nearly the same degree as it is an IFJ thing.
    Well, unless one is going to say that IFPs engage in the exact same behavior, and for the exact same reasons, it makes more sense to ascribe it to aux Fe. I thought fia did a pretty good job explaining the reason(s) why.

  8. #18
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, unless one is going to say that IFPs engage in the exact same behavior, and for the exact same reasons, it makes more sense to ascribe it to aux Fe. I thought fia did a pretty good job explaining the reason(s) why.
    If it's a characteristic that tends to result from a combination of I, F and J, how would it follow that "IFPs engage in the exact same behavior"?

    And given that the aux is supposed to serve the dom, what sense does it make to be finding characteristics that Fe is supposedly the cause of when it's in the aux position but that it doesn't cause when it's in the dom position?

    If you've never read my long INTJforum post on why I'm a "dichotomies guy," consider yourself invited.

    Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for two of the links in that post:

    McCrae & Costa article (click on the pic in the right column to access the full article)
    Reynierse article

  9. #19
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
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    @fia While I think you make some valid points, I must say barely anything in that doormat list applies to me. I still feel blame for other peoples' moods too often, but that's about it. I'd say I'm very sensitive to being pushed around and don't let that happen easily.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    If it's a characteristic that tends to result from a combination of I, F and J, how would it follow that "IFPs engage in the exact same behavior"?
    I'm not saying it does.

    Imo, that's the only reason to take your position, tho (if all IFs engaged in such behavior [and thus Fe was not a factor]).

    Obviously, I was taking issue with your preference for a dichotomy-centric perspective.

    To me, saying one has I, F, and J preferences is to say one has aux Fe.

    I prefer a function-centric perspective.

    And given that the aux is supposed to serve the dom, what sense does it make to be finding characteristics that Fe is supposedly the cause of when it's in the aux position but that it doesn't cause when it's in the dom position?
    Well, first off, perhaps all the aux does is more than simply serve the dom. Perhaps it has its own imperatives, but, when in the auxiliary position, these don't quite get expressed the same way as when in the dominant.

    Or, perhaps what was described above is the auxiliary serving the dominant (and that is precisely the problem [perhaps if it was more differentiated, and serving itself {and thus the individual was more balanced in their introversion and extroversion than another IFJ for whom this was not the case}, they would not allow themselves to be such a doormat, engaging more in the kind of behavior that EFJs do]).

    The point seems rather obvious to me: that Fe in the aux position doesn't necessarily manifest the same way it does in the dominant position.

    I actually see much less point to your question, than what your question is questioning.

    If you've never read my long INTJforum post on why I'm a "dichotomies guy," consider yourself invited.
    I researched you once, and came to understand that you prefer a dichotomy-centric perspective.

    I might have run into that thread via a link you posted another time, and might have read some of it -- can't remember.

    Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for two of the links in that post:

    McCrae & Costa article (click on the pic in the right column to access the full article)
    Reynierse article
    I am a member, but I believe I have zero posts, so the links might not work anyway.

    Thanks for posting.

    Is there anything particularly of note here?

    I'm pretty sure I understand the position; what in these links do you find persuasive?

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