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ENTJ's are disliked?

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
So you guys may think that learning about your mbti type was liberating and helped you alot to understand yourself and others better. Hopefully, it might help other people around you understand you better too.

Well I must say after learning about the ENTJ type for the first time I searched for "ENTJ" and at the time I found a couple of pages complaining about ENTJ's. Some people were complaining about bad experiences in business with arrogant ENTJ's, others were annoyed about how ENTJ's always have to ask tons of questions in class, some thought ENTJ's were just too blunt and insensitive to other people's feelings... Next, everytime I met some people into the MBTI and I told them my type they started to become wary of me. For example, there's this guy who I get on with well, an INFP, who after learning that I was ENTJ systematically refused to do anything I would ask him, became paranoid about me controlling him, and made it downright impossible to do anything. This other ENTP would enjoy playing little tricks on me (in a nice way) to show that he could "get me".

So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?
 

JivinJeffJones

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Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
3,702
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INFP
It's kind of hard to have sympathy for an ENTJ. I had an ENTJ "friend" once who spent 3 years trying to find the right approach to get me to follow his lead. He just couldn't seem to relax unless he was in charge. At their worst ENTJs almost strike me as parasitic. They crave leadership. The sweet sweet pleasure of denying them such leadership is one of the redeeming features of friendship with an ENTJ.

I guess telling people you're an ENTJ would help you score with the ladies who are looking for an alpha male type.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,511
MBTI Type
ENTP
and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?

I don't think that's a paradox at all. In workplace settings, I've found that the worst bosses are usually the ones that are more concerned with being popular than being competent.


Personally, ENTJs are probably my favorite type. Next to INTPs of course.
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?

No one wants a leader as a friend or in a relationship. I think the answer is that simple.

Plus, once the veil has been taken away, ENTJs tend towards manipulating others in their own leadership goals. Once people pick up on it, it's all downhill.
 

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
It's kind of hard to have sympathy for an ENTJ. I had an ENTJ "friend" once who spent 3 years trying to find the right approach to get me to follow his lead. He just couldn't seem to relax unless he was in charge. At their worst ENTJs almost strike me as parasitic. They crave leadership. The sweet sweet pleasure of denying them such leadership is one of the redeeming features of friendship with an ENTJ.

I guess telling people you're an ENTJ would help you score with the ladies who are looking for an alpha male type.

I guess it would be useless since people can already feel that from a mile away. I'm not even an alpha male type in the typical "strong physical guy who is captain of the football team" at all. In fact, I can't even be bothered with most sports and prefer intellectual activities.

I think it's a real pity though because the MBTI is geared towards understanding others, yet many types into it seem to dislike ENTJ's. It's as if they judge everything from their own type and consider leading "bad". There's even a kind of emotional revenge/envy - sort of "you may be the leaders but you won't get me to like you".

I was born my type and didn't choose the fact that being independent and in charge of something would be one of my core needs. Just as much as you need emotional connection, I need to be in charge. But anyway your answer corresponds to what people do in relationships with me. They will constantly try do "deny" me the leadership position. There's an attitude that comes from resentment, which I can understand, but I find it a bit annoying that people take pleasure out of it. It's almost... perverse and evil. Because they are doing it intentionally and "playing games" whereas my style is as natural as breathing. Relationships with others might end up being a game of hide and seek. "Look, you can lead me!", "Now, you can't anymore!", "You're angry? Here, lead me again", "You're in a good mood? You can't lead me anymore".

Some people have even tried to make me feel guilty about leading as if it was a "bad" personality trait to have. As if someone who wants to take charge and have power is necessarily evil, because no one should lead and everyone should be equal. That's what I was brought up to believe at least.

In the end, I've found that *not* leading and introverting ironically makse people follow me much more. In fact, when I don't want people to lead they all seem to come in masses... and I'm like "Nah, I just want to do my own thing" and they end up asking me "please! you're the only one that could do it!"
 

Maverick

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Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
No one wants a leader as a friend or in a relationship. I think the answer is that simple.

Plus, once the veil has been taken away, ENTJs tend towards manipulating others in their own leadership goals. Once people pick up on it, it's all downhill.

That's silly. Why are you friends with ENTJs then? And why have I got dozens of close friends that I've kept over the years, and a great gf that loves me for who I am?

If you're actually planning on being obnoxious, at least do it somewhat convincingly.
 

ptgatsby

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Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
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ISTP
That's silly. Why are you friends with ENTJs then? And why have I got dozens of close friends that I've kept over the years, and a great gf that loves me for who I am?

Most likely because you are aware of who you are. This mitigates the domineering factors fairly well. Plus, there are always those that like these traits - we all find people we are comfortable with.

I had assumed this was about ENTJs in general and not about you... I can tell you that I do avoid domineering types as friends because I like personal space. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with one. I have heard the same from others, not just INTPs, so it isn't exactly a unique thing.

(Also, outside of MBTI, the main measurement that makes ENTJs bad is neuroticism... reactive ENTJs are the worst! But anyway...)

If you're actually planning on being obnoxious, at least do it somewhat convincingly.

If I plan to do anything, I do it convincingly... I just didn't think I needed to put much more than my own view on it. You can filter it out as you see fit.
 

Zergling

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,377
MBTI Type
ExTJ
I was born my type and didn't choose the fact that being independent and in charge of something would be one of my core needs.

Trying to be in charge puts you above other people, and is seem as an attempt to take power from them, which is unexected in friendships, tends to wear them down from the under the surface competetion it can cause, and threatening in a certain amount. It's much more threatening than most of the other stereotypical behaviors of of different MBTI types (except perhaps stereotypical ESTP behaviors).
 

Brendan

Guerilla Urbanist
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
911
MBTI Type
ENFJ
So you guys may think that learning about your mbti type was liberating and helped you alot to understand yourself and others better. Hopefully, it might help other people around you understand you better too.

Well I must say after learning about the ENTJ type for the first time I searched for "ENTJ" and at the time I found a couple of pages complaining about ENTJ's. Some people were complaining about bad experiences in business with arrogant ENTJ's, others were annoyed about how ENTJ's always have to ask tons of questions in class, some thought ENTJ's were just too blunt and insensitive to other people's feelings... Next, everytime I met some people into the MBTI and I told them my type they started to become wary of me. For example, there's this guy who I get on with well, an INFP, who after learning that I was ENTJ systematically refused to do anything I would ask him, became paranoid about me controlling him, and made it downright impossible to do anything. This other ENTP would enjoy playing little tricks on me (in a nice way) to show that he could "get me".

So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?
I used to be best friends with an ENTJ. We got along fine mostly because I didn't have a problem following his lead. I didn't find him controlling, I figured he was just a natural leader. The only thing that annoyed me was how he wouldn't go along with it when I had something that I specifically wanted to do. Other than that, I seemed to be the only person who he would forego his own judgement for or take instruction from, but that was rare, and it usually only happened either when I made it clear that he had made me extremely angry or when I was trying to be the voice of reason when it came to the way he treated other people.

Mostly I just dislike most immature ENTJ's I meet. The mature ones are great fun and very good to have as friends.

But then, I'm an ENFJ, and not only are we (according to several MBTI sites) supposedly good matches for ENTJ's, we get some of the same complaints as ENTJ's. So it is what it is I suppose.
I guess telling people you're an ENTJ would help you score with the ladies who are looking for an alpha male type.
Yeah. I tend to be attracted to ENTJ's. Then I remember that for a long term relationship, I'd probably go insane.
 

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Most likely because you are aware of who you are. This mitigates the domineering factors fairly well. Plus, there are always those that like these traits - we all find people we are comfortable with.

I had assumed this was about ENTJs in general and not about you... I can tell you that I do avoid domineering types as friends because I like personal space. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with one. I have heard the same from others, not just INTPs, so it isn't exactly a unique thing.

(Also, outside of MBTI, the main measurement that makes ENTJs bad is neuroticism... reactive ENTJs are the worst! But anyway...)

It is about both ENTJ's and myself, but your statement was absolute ("No one wants"). There's domineering and leading. I don't want to be around domineering types either. People are always free to do what they want.
 

Noel

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
613
MBTI Type
INFP
So you guys may think that learning about your mbti type was liberating and helped you alot to understand yourself and others better. Hopefully, it might help other people around you understand you better too.

Well I must say after learning about the ENTJ type for the first time I searched for "ENTJ" and at the time I found a couple of pages complaining about ENTJ's. Some people were complaining about bad experiences in business with arrogant ENTJ's, others were annoyed about how ENTJ's always have to ask tons of questions in class, some thought ENTJ's were just too blunt and insensitive to other people's feelings... Next, everytime I met some people into the MBTI and I told them my type they started to become wary of me. For example, there's this guy who I get on with well, an INFP, who after learning that I was ENTJ systematically refused to do anything I would ask him, became paranoid about me controlling him, and made it downright impossible to do anything. This other ENTP would enjoy playing little tricks on me (in a nice way) to show that he could "get me".

So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?

Man, he/she's is such a bastard/bitch...yet such a badass.

Whenever I catch myself saying that about a person, it seems that I've found an ENTJ. I use Bastard/Bitch as a compliment, in the sense that they can rip right through people's bullshit as bluntly as possible with no remorse and explain why your wrong with such precision that you swear you just watched a grammy winning performance of a lawyer open up a can of whoopass on someone.

ENTJs are great. I know two of them. One is going to Berkeley Law and the other my girlfriend. I think ENTJs are stereotyped just as bad as INFPs e.g. ENTJs are incapable of caring for people as INFPs have to be overly emotionally sensitive. The ability to effectively facilitate and communicate with people their ideas into a logical, yet organized system, at least to me, is something I wish I could do. ENXJs are like the TMNT Leonardo: leads the turtles, follows splinter's plan, acts methodically, etc. Everyone hates the "Leonardo" of the group of friends, but still plays a vital role in the makeup of the group i.e. all species play a unique role, yet a part of a much larger system (nature).

I guess I've always had a thing for XNTJs in general. I can see such emotional potential under their layers; XNTP's emotions is to being shackled in prison, as XNTJ's emotions is to the Iron Maiden or XNTPs are to heavy chainmail/light plate as XNTJs are to Full Plate dual wielding two Tower Shields. They are there, just heavily concealed even more so than XNTPs.

I think you define yourself through actions rather than words. I can say I'm an INFP to an, say, NT and I know that certain preconceptions will arise just from that alone. I'm pretty sure everyone does that, we're human. If someone alone thinks your "unworthy" from type alone, fuck 'em. I guess that's the real beauty of friendship: you are born without any of them and for that reason, friendship should be sacred.
 

JivinJeffJones

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Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
3,702
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INFP
I think it's a real pity though because the MBTI is geared towards understanding others, yet many types into it seem to dislike ENTJ's. It's as if they judge everything from their own type and consider leading "bad". There's even a kind of emotional revenge/envy - sort of "you may be the leaders but you won't get me to like you".

Personally I don't have a problem with leadership per se. It helps get things done. I just have a problem when people need to be the leader in everything - even things they aren't the best qualified to lead. The ENTJs I know tend to be like this. It's particularly irksome in a friendship. There should be a lot of give and take. I just don't think it's especially healthy to be a subordinate in a friendship. Like PTG said, no-one wants a leader in a friendship. Especially when the issue doesn't seem to be primarily about getting stuff done, but rather about gaining control. Every interaction turns into a wrestle for ascendancy. That's not fun when it's a consistent pattern.

I was born my type and didn't choose the fact that being independent and in charge of something would be one of my core needs.

I have no problem with this. It's when someone needs to be in charge of just about everything that I start to have a problem with them.

Just as much as you need emotional connection, I need to be in charge.

*skin crawls* ;)

But anyway your answer corresponds to what people do in relationships with me. They will constantly try do "deny" me the leadership position. There's an attitude that comes from resentment, which I can understand, but I find it a bit annoying that people take pleasure out of it. It's almost... perverse and evil. Because they are doing it intentionally and "playing games" whereas my style is as natural as breathing. Relationships with others might end up being a game of hide and seek. "Look, you can lead me!", "Now, you can't anymore!", "You're angry? Here, lead me again", "You're in a good mood? You can't lead me anymore".

I guess they might be trying to draw boundaries for you. And I'm sure if you've had anything to do with another ENTJ (I'd pay to watch that for a day) you'd realize that it is pretty funny to watch the reaction of an ENTJ being thwarted in his/her relentless quest for control. They just will not give up. The resulting stratagems are endless and sometimes comical.

Some people have even tried to make me feel guilty about leading as if it was a "bad" personality trait to have. As if someone who wants to take charge and have power is necessarily evil, because no one should lead and everyone should be equal. That's what I was brought up to believe at least.

Yeah, Australia is probably one of the most egalitarian nations on earth. Hell for ENTJs I suspect. Which doesn't mean we don't need leadership as much as anyone else, it just means that leaders have to be pretty careful in their leadership style. We have a major and well-documented case of the tall poppy syndrome.

In the end, I've found that *not* leading and introverting ironically makse people follow me much more. In fact, when I don't want people to lead they all seem to come in masses... and I'm like "Nah, I just want to do my own thing" and they end up asking me "please! you're the only one that could do it!"

People often want to be led, but rarely want to be overtly led (especially guys). Which is why INTJs often make deceptively popular leaders.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
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ISFP
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sp/sx
When these MBTI stereotypes get really negative, it just reveals people's deep down fears about others in general. It's never fun to have someone disappoint or betray you, so people can use MBTI as a way to bypass ever being tricked into trusting the wrong person. Stereotypes drive me absolutely crazy. They are irrational and nasty. They combine all the worst effects of refusal to think or be considerate of feelings. Pure, unadulterated pooeyness. :sick:

I have nothing against ENTJs. I agree with Booyalab about preferring competency over popularity in an employer. To me ENTJs are the NTs I'm least familiar with, so I am curious about them. IMO ENTJs are a rather important type because they have the visionary, analytical, structured approach that is outgoing. It sounds like a very effective personality. Even if they are aggressive, it sounds like they could generally be reasoned with, a very important trait.
 

The Ü™

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May 26, 2007
Messages
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INTJ
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5w6
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sp/sx
I don't know any ENTJs, but based on their preferences, I think this type is the ideal movie director due to their Te dominant function driven to make things happen in the outer world followed by an Ni auxiliary function that has a visionary outlook.

I don't understand why the ENTJ is always the military leader, CEO or dictator. I think judging by their functions, they are just as inclined as other iNtuitives to be involved in the arts and so forth.
 

Brendan

Guerilla Urbanist
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
911
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ENFJ
People are always free to do what they want.
Yes but when the ultimatum is something along the lines of "follow my lead or I won't be your friend," people tend to feel rather resistant, wether the ultimatum is spoken or unspoken, intentional or not.

I can tell you right now, I don't react well to ultimatums.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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sp/sx
Yes but when the ultimatum is something along the lines of "follow my lead or I won't be your friend," people tend to feel rather resistant, wether the ultimatum is spoken or unspoken, intentional or not.
I think I have known ENTJs! I remember in pre-school, my friend Donny saying just that to me. That nasty, little ENTJ! :steam:
 

Brendan

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Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
911
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I think I have known ENTJs! I remember in pre-school, my friend Donny saying just that to me. That nasty, little ENTJ! :steam:
Like I said, maturity makes all the difference in an ENTJ, and I think that holds true for all types.
 

logan235711

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Apr 29, 2007
Messages
166
MBTI Type
INTJ
hey! Maverick!!:hi:
I don't hate ENTJs! but then again...I don't know any, so I can't hate any...but anyways! :D If you want, we can be friends :yes: :hug: I don't think I'll mind if you want to be in charge--but I plan on asking LLOOOTTTTSSSSSSSS of questions :D

:heart: -logan
 

Maverick

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Apr 29, 2007
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ENTJ
I don't think that's a paradox at all. In workplace settings, I've found that the worst bosses are usually the ones that are more concerned with being popular than being competent.

Yeah I have to agree on that.

Trying to be in charge puts you above other people, and is seem as an attempt to take power from them, which is unexected in friendships, tends to wear them down from the under the surface competetion it can cause, and threatening in a certain amount. It's much more threatening than most of the other stereotypical behaviors of of different MBTI types (except perhaps stereotypical ESTP behaviors).

That's a fair point. It's a difficult tendency to eliminate in oneself though, because it happens automatically even when you don't want to or are putting in a great deal of effort to come off as equal.

I used to be best friends with an ENTJ. We got along fine mostly because I didn't have a problem following his lead. I didn't find him controlling, I figured he was just a natural leader. The only thing that annoyed me was how he wouldn't go along with it when I had something that I specifically wanted to do. Other than that, I seemed to be the only person who he would forego his own judgement for or take instruction from, but that was rare, and it usually only happened either when I made it clear that he had made me extremely angry or when I was trying to be the voice of reason when it came to the way he treated other people.

Funny you say that, I tend to get along well with ENFJ's and they don't mind my behavior. They kind of look at me from a distance as a Big Kid who is better left to his business of organizing things. I think it's always necessary to take into account other people's needs.

Whenever I catch myself saying that about a person, it seems that I've found an ENTJ. I use Bastard/Bitch as a compliment, in the sense that they can rip right through people's bullshit as bluntly as possible with no remorse and explain why your wrong with such precision that you swear you just watched a grammy winning performance of a lawyer open up a can of whoopass on someone.

ENTJs are great. I know two of them. One is going to Berkeley Law and the other my girlfriend. I think ENTJs are stereotyped just as bad as INFPs e.g. ENTJs are incapable of caring for people as INFPs have to be overly emotionally sensitive. The ability to effectively facilitate and communicate with people their ideas into a logical, yet organized system, at least to me, is something I wish I could do. ENXJs are like the TMNT Leonardo: leads the turtles, follows splinter's plan, acts methodically, etc. Everyone hates the "Leonardo" of the group of friends, but still plays a vital role in the makeup of the group i.e. all species play a unique role, yet a part of a much larger system (nature).

I guess I've always had a thing for XNTJs in general. I can see such emotional potential under their layers; XNTP's emotions is to being shackled in prison, as XNTJ's emotions is to the Iron Maiden or XNTPs are to heavy chainmail/light plate as XNTJs are to Full Plate dual wielding two Tower Shields. They are there, just heavily concealed even more so than XNTPs.

I think you define yourself through actions rather than words. I can say I'm an INFP to an, say, NT and I know that certain preconceptions will arise just from that alone. I'm pretty sure everyone does that, we're human. If someone alone thinks your "unworthy" from type alone, fuck 'em. I guess that's the real beauty of friendship: you are born without any of them and for that reason, friendship should be sacred.

People around me usually appreciate that ability also :) It's true that everyone hates the "Leonardo" in a group of friends. So what I usually do socially is not lead and take a serious backseat... then I find that people naturally ask me what to do.

Of course you're right about the last point, but considering the overwhelming apprehension people have about ENTJ's, I think I'm better off simply not discussing the MBTI with people IRL.
 
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