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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    I think the type prejudice we talked about will never be gone, unless MBTI authors stop demonizing some types and canonizing some other types. It is from articles like these that people got their biased view of types.

    An example of blatant prejudice against ENTJ would be this. Here are some quotes from the article:


    "I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?"

    TRADEMARK: -- "I'm really sorry you have to die."

    "When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative. Alternatively (s)he may unleash an icy gaze that serves notice: the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."



    Surely not many people would think positively of ENTJ after reading this article. But unfortunately, it's very popular – it's on the 2nd spot if you search ENTJ in Google.

    I agree with you that type could become a clue on par with race, religion, gender, and social class. Actually, the type system is completely free of influence from these social constructs that define a society e.g. man is different from woman according to the tradition, but according to MBTI man is similar to woman if they share the same type. It's a new way to see people, without the prejudice and judgment that exist in the aforementioned social constructs. The system even provides explanations of each type's motivations, interests, self image, value systems, and their preferred social roles. It sounds good enough to give it a shot, if most people actually fit these discriminatory stereotypes that is.

    For the practical use of the theory I am thinking of using it to discover a person's potential abilities and interests but not to gauge his/her personal character. I think MBTI also has its use when we first get to know a person. But, of course, once we assigned a type to a person we limited what that person could be for us. That's the reason why I have dismissed the MBTI system of people categorization.

    Stereotypes are there for a reason - there're usually some truths in those stereotypes. But to use these stereotypes to judge our buddies, parents, lovers, and the people close to us is just ridiculous, because we have so many opportunities to know these people better to stop using stereotypes to describe them.

    And I won't even know about MBTI if not for an INFP ex asking me to take the Kiersey test. She actually paid for it so why not. But god knows she would raise hell after she knew I'm ESTJ. So there're some truths when you say INxx could be "benefited” from teaching others about their type. But I think it also brings out the worst in humans when they find out their ex is their complete opposite. It's really annoying I tell ya
    Yes, some types seem to get more favorable descriptions than others and this may reflect a bias from MBTI authors themselves. The excerpts you have cited from one ENTJ description are a good example of the exagerations that can be found in some type descriptions. Thus, it may not be surprising indeed that some people hold overly negative or positive views on certain types since people looking for information on MBTI types on the Internet will find these biased descriptions easily since they are highly ranked in search engines.

    You do have a point that type is free from certain social constructs that are usually used in person perception. I also agree with you that there is some truth in stereotypes. Stereotypes are necessary and useful because they provide us a way of gaining quickly information about someone when are resources are limited. However, as you suggest, it does not make sense to use them in situations where we have the resources to gain more fine grained information about someone, such as with people close to us.

    Your anecdote with your ex highlights some problems that could arise from using the MBTI. People excel at finding evidence that supports a hypothesis they have formed and tend to disregard evidence that is contrary to it (confirmation bias). For example, someone who believes that "F"'s are not capable of logical thinking might see multiple instances of logical thinking by an "F" as only exceptional, and use a sole instance of illogical thinking as "proof" that confirms the initial suspicion that an "F" person cannot think logically. Also, people's expectations about other's behaviors might cause them to behave in such a way as to situationally provoke the expected behavior in another (self-fulfilling prophecy). For example, by acting in a warm, trusting and affectionate way with a person who we think is an "NF", there is a good chance that we will sollicit these behaviors in return regardless of the actual type of the person. These natural biases in human functionning may make it more difficult for someone into the MBTI to be able to see the more specific personality traits a person may hold regardless of his or her type.

  2. #72
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I love ENTJs. They're quite useful.

    ...that was glib and I apologize. Anyway, I think that ENTJs and ESTJs are the two types that benefit most from recognizing themselves for the who they are and choosing careers accordingly. I've had two ENTJ friends in my life; one is almost finished with law school and will become a corporate lawyer soon. She is quite happy and does fine in social settings. The other got married a bit too soon and ended up in a job that doesn't suit him at all. He become very domineering in his relationships with other people, and with time became more and more controlling over even inconsequential minutiae and wrecked most of his friendships. I haven't talked to him in quite some time.

  3. #73

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    I get along great with ENTJs, especially in a work environment. I had two different business partners that were ENTJs, and I had a former boss that was one.

    The problem a few of the less developed/mature ones I worked with, is there lack of ability to adjust the message for a paricular audience. They weren't always aware when they alienated some of the staff members, through their occasional rough treatment of others. Also, when they threw out compliments or did "nice" things for others, sometimes people would interperet it as a manipulation tactic - which wasn't always the case.

    The one ENTJ boss, I had, used to butt heads with me a lot, but I realized he enjoyed it later (he kept promoting me). They like the challenge of a good argument - it's just their style that throws people off (they aren't even really mad most of the time they are venting).

    The thing most people don't realize is that they are fair. They can take as much as they dish out (as long as it's logical). Some of the other controlling types will give you shit, but they crumble or can't hear reason if they get any of their own medicine back.

  4. #74
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Baaah I'm ENTJ and the only relational problems I've ever had was with my bosses (I can't be told what to do).

    Also some girlfriends thought I was manipulating them because I gave them compliments whereas I treated some others like shit. You're my fucking girlfriend there's a reason for it! Let me give you some damn compliments for christ's sake.

    Other than this I don't control my friend, I'm really easygoing, BUT I'm very pushy if for example there's a friend that hasn't gone out in a while and I know he's kind of depressed and he doesn't want to come out because he's depressed but he'd benefit from coming out so I insist a lot.

    Socially I'm decent, I even waste time that should be spent working socializing, but that's mostly because I try to work very fast so I can go back to chatting with girls at the workplace.

    Another thing. I'm actually pretty afraid of confrontation with people that are close to me. I don't really want others to get angry/hold grudges/etc so I prefer to accomodate. For example I don't like to quarrel with girlfriends because I know I'd be helpless with the forthcoming grudge. I become confrontational when somebody else starts bossing me around - there I feel justified. So basically the people I don't get along with are the ones that try to boss me around, but I also try not to boss around anyone because I know I wouldn't like it done on me.

    WHEN I Do become aggressive means that I REALLY REALLY KNOW what the best decision is in that moment. I know it sounds arrogant but it doesn't happen frequently, and so people that have known me for a long time have learnt to recognize that in that case they should listen (for example, I'm very good at navigating through unknown roads, and my father is very bad. When I was very very little, he'd tell me off because he is my father. However once he started to follow me, he saw that I was usually right...so he conceded).

  5. #75
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Stuff
    The world need more ENTJs of your ilk. And less INFPs of mine.

  6. #76
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The world need more ENTJs of your ilk. And less INFPs of mine.
    ilk?

    anyway there's plenty of space for both, i think.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    They crave leadership. The sweet sweet pleasure of denying them such leadership is one of the redeeming features of friendship with an ENTJ.
    Maybe my absolute disdain of being controlled is what made my best friend (ENTJ) respect me? ROFL.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I don't know any ENTJs, but based on their preferences, I think this type is the ideal movie director due to their Te dominant function driven to make things happen in the outer world followed by an Ni auxiliary function that has a visionary outlook.

    I don't understand why the ENTJ is always the military leader, CEO or dictator. I think judging by their functions, they are just as inclined as other iNtuitives to be involved in the arts and so forth.
    Quinten Tarantino

  9. #79
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    For me, knowing my type doesn't mean a way to get on with everyone, but more a way of helping me to understand why I don't always, and to accept the 'cons' that go with all the 'pros' of being me, such as being thought of as shallow, crazy, egotistical and all the other things that go along with enthusiastic, stimulating company and the rest of it.

    You already know how it is with me and ENTJ's - the love of my life was one and I've worked and lived closely with a lot of them in my time, so I love 'em. I know there are a load of positive things about being ENTJ, and when you get to know them they're totally awesome people. But nothing's ever perfect, and there's no such thing as a free lunch - with that good stuff, you get the bad stuff. Being a natural leader, well, the other side of the coin is the whole 'lonely at the top' thing - because most people aren't leaders, they don't understand things from your POV and tend to see 'you' (or your type) as 'the oppressor', which for a lot of people equals anyone who tells them to do things they don't want to, even if they're good for them.

    It's not about "how to make everyone like you and understand you" for me, since I'm a firm subscriber to the adage "you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time", but more "how to not feel so shitty when people dislike and misunderstand you, and how to minimize conflicts from misunderstandings". And maybe in a slightly creepy, sociopathic way, "how to make sure I get what I want".

    You're not the only one the good points of whose type carry loneliness as a bad point - ask an introvert, specially an INTP.

    I wrote a poem for the ENTJ I was in a wonderful relationship with, about the loneliness and uniqueness of leadership. You might like it (then again you might not), so here it is.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    So what's the point in telling anyone you're an ENTJ? Are ENTJ's fundamentally disliked, and how to resolve the paradox of a personality that is disliked yet manages to become a leader so often?
    I didn't realize ENTJ's were disliked until I started frequenting this board, and until I had my own fallout with an ENTJ friend a few months ago, experiencing firsthand a more unhealthy one. Really, I think it boils down to some being more extreme in their preferences, others more balanced. And, some maybe embracing everything they're 'supposed' to be like fully, just because that's how they're 'supposed' to be.

    Well, I've known a few. One is a good female friend from college - she was a wonderful friend for 4 yrs, and I still keep in touch with her :-), and I only have good things to say about her. I never saw all of the negative stereotypical things that you hear about ENTJ's having, in her. I would describe her as well-rounded. The 'ENTJ-ness' came out when she got into debates, and it takes a 'tough', VERY confident guy to really dig her in a romantic way. I think she tended to have problems in relationships (although she was usually dating someone or other throughout college - but she usually found that they weren't confident enough, and she wanted someone who could dish it out to her, like she could to them. She didn't want someone who would let her push them around). But as far as friends go, she was extremely sociable in college, and I'd say well-liked. To be truthful, I was envious of her - her self-assurance and likeability. And she was SO much fun. Can she be bossy? Well, sure. But that's really the only negative thing I can say about her.

    I've also had a bad experience with an ENTJ - an unhealthy ENTJ, who has pretty much all of the stereotypical characteristics for ENTJ's. That friendship ended not too long ago, to the relief of probably both of us.

    And then one of my best friends tested herself as ENTJ a few yrs back, and identified with it, but having gotten to know her over the yrs, I am highly skeptical about it -- I'd say she's right on the border of T/F, IF she's an ENTJ. But, I love her too. Again, very popular, and well-liked.

    Eh..it's what you want to make of it. No one's saying you have to fit the ENTJ description to a T, or that you 'have' to be that way. You can be however you want to be, in my opinion. It goes back to your 'balance' thread. And, like others have said, there are many different grays of each personality type, I think - not black and white. Some are more extreme, others may learn to balance their preferences/tendencies out over time. Others simply may not have a strong preference to begin with.

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